Babies in space

Hello there and welcome to Space Cowboys episode 8. Episode 8. My name is Herbert Blankesteijn. My name is Thijs Roes. My name is Egbert Regelhoek. And that's our guest of today. Thank you. Very good. That's great, a guest I can introduce. A self-introducing guest. Yes, welcome Egbert. Thanks. And Egbert is from Space Life Origin. He's, what's your job again? Your job title? My job title is Chief Innovation and Strategy Officer. That's stuff I can't remember. Thank you very much for that. And if you were to summarize in one sentence what you do. In one sentence, I am the cement between all the scientific disciplines that are necessary. Hold on, hold on. I'm talking about the company. The company? Yeah, what do you do? Yeah. What does your company do? I get it. We're going to talk about it for an hour. Yes, yes. We research conditions for human reproduction in space. Wow. Wow, silence. Exactly, exactly. And so we're going to talk about that for this episode. It's going to be super interesting. That's right. It's sort of out there, but we'd love to hear more about it. Let's start off with our story of the week, shall we? No, I want to welcome people if we're live. That's a good idea. On YouTube. Of course, it's a first for us. It's a first. And it's by... It's very much a tryout. So people watching, if anything goes wrong, please let us know, you know? So we hope to fix it. Maybe not this episode, but otherwise next episode. And if anything goes very well, please let us know too. Thank you. That's a very good point. Yeah. So, yes, without further ado, Herbert, what do you have for this story? Well, I have two, maybe one and a half story of the week. That's all right. My story, my real story of the week is about... I'm a Dutch scientist who has given us a method to find life out there in space. Okay. And it works like this. If you do chemistry, you may have molecules that have a certain makeup. And in some cases, these molecules can occur in two forms, which are each other's mirror image. Okay. All right? Every molecule has its own mirror. Well, of course they have, but sometimes these mirror images are identical. But in some cases with carbon, for instance, carbon can have a certain pyramid-like structure. Pyramid-like, yeah. Yeah. And if each edge of these pyramids has a different atom attached to it, you can have these mirror images. Yeah. Yeah. Which are different, which you can't rotate in any way. One is identical to the other. Okay. Okay? So sometimes they're identical and sometimes they're not identical. Yep. Okay. Yep. So, life has complicated molecules and these non-identical mirror images occur in living tissues and living beings. And they have a peculiar property. If you shine light on them, on these non-identical mirror images, the light gets changed in a certain way. And if you shine just regular light on it, you can get back light that is, now comes a difficult scientific term, circularly polarized. Circularly? Yes. It's difficult in English, isn't it? Okay. Imagine, wait for it. Imagine a rope. Yeah. You can make waves in a rope, like vertical waves. That go up and down. The same rope you can swing in a different way and you get horizontal, hang on, you get horizontal waves. Yeah. Same way in light you can have vertically polarized light, horizontally polarized light. But if you start moving your rope in circles, you get circular waves in the rope. The same way you can have circularly polarized light. Aha. Okay. In a corkscrew. Yeah. Yeah. Something. It's difficult to. Imagine light going in a corkscrew, but nevermind that. It's called circularly polarized light and science can distinguish one from the other. So this circularly polarized light can occur when light shines on life. That's what this Dutch scientist, Dutch astronomer, Lucas Patti, has discovered. Wow. Inge-Louis Tenkaat, by the way, guest in our second Space Cowboys podcast, was involved. Oh, she was involved. That's right. Inge-Louis Tenkaat. Where are you? When we need you. Exactly. But anyway. So this is a way. So if I understand you correctly, this is a way to detect life just by its light. But the fact that the corkscrew shape only exists in these molecules that exist in life. Right. So if you point your telescope out into space and you find circularly polarized light, that's a very big flag that tells you, here, you can have life. Wow. This is probably life. And this is a Dutch invention. It's a Dutch invention. Wow. We are not big on that. We're not big on nationalism on this show. But we're proud anyway. In this case, sure. Yeah. By the way, the story goes, this will not be applied right away. You have to change lots of stuff technically in telescopes. So the story goes, maybe in about 10 years, we can use this in practice to go out and search for life. Exactly. You have to get it into a telescope first. Technology needs to get built in and everything. Yeah. You said you had one and a half stories. Yeah. The other half, let me go to my browser. I can do my half because I have a half story. Oh, no, it's there. Oh, yeah. Okay. Never mind. It's about Virgin Galactic. They have a video out. It's a promotional video. You know, it's a big commercial, in fact. But it's about their pilots. It's about the background of the pilots. So we'll let you hear a small part of it, where you witness a Virgin Galactic spaceship going up into space and pilots watching out of the window. Spaceship Unity, welcome to space. Jaffe Base, million dollar view. Jaffe, spaceships reentering directly overhead the field. Oops. Excuse me. So they're, never mind. It's pilots telling each other welcome into space. And. And praising the million dollar view. And well, I recommend you watch this video and see how pilots of Virgin Galactic are doing. And maybe you'll be on board of one of those. Let me guess. They're in the show notes. Yes. The video. Absolutely. Absolutely. Hey, so my story of the week is, it's very short. It's very short. Last week, I did the whole recap of a lot of news. Today, I want to be the weatherman. Today, I want to be the weatherman. Because, do you know? What temperature it is on Mars right now? And what the forecast is for this week? What do you mean, where on Mars? I mean, you can be at the equator or at the poles or anywhere. It happens to be at Elysium Planitia. And that happens to be the place where the InSight, it's not a rover. How do you call that? It's InSight itself, the machine. It's a lander. It's a lander. It has landed. It's not moving. It's just there to measure earthquakes and all these other things. Okay. And it has a weather station. It has a weather station. So InSight. I would guess. Yeah. It's freezing there. Yeah, it's not warm. Maybe, maybe minus 20 degrees centigrade. That's not bad. That's not bad. Today on Mars, Elysium Planitia, there's a high of minus 17 Celsius and a low of minus 95 Celsius. I was close. You were very close. Yeah. Right now, I'm not really sure. It's probably, I'm not sure if it's day or night. It just says, it's just a forecast. And for tomorrow, for tomorrow, the forecast is minus 10 Celsius. So that's a nice day. Okay. You go shirtless. Yes. Exactly. For our American viewers, that's, how much is that in Fahrenheit? Let's go. That's 15. Tomorrow is a high of 15 on Mars. Plus 15. Plus 15 and a low of minus 138. So if you're interested for some reason in the weather forecast for Mars, you can now go to, well, InSight has, InSight slash weather. What is it? Mars.nasa.gov slash InSight slash weather. It'll be in the show notes. Yeah. It will be on the show notes. And I think they, on Twitter, they also, InSight also tweets what the weather is. You can subscribe to the Martian weather forecast. You need to know what the weather is on Mars. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we're going there. You need to know whether or not to bring your umbrella. Exactly. Exactly. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta know. I have another guess. It's dry. It's not raining there. I was, yes. It doesn't say anything about if it's sunny or cloudy because it's usually always sunny. You can have some high clouds, right? Sometimes it's like icy high clouds. Or of course a gigantic dust storm. I was about to say that. I do hope they have a good forecast of the dust storms because they can screw up your rover. Exactly. Like, like happens to, that was sort of my other story of the week, but I think people might have probably already heard of it. Yeah. I was like, the weather is more funny. But of course. Opportunity. Opportunity was finally brought to the grave. Yeah. Dust storm last year. It was given up. It was given up. Yeah. It wasn't working for. A couple of months now, right? It was last, last September ish. Yeah. Gigantic dust storm and they probably covered its solar panels. There was no energy in that thing left anymore. And. Too bad. Yes. Rest in peace. But we have a couple of rovers left. We got a couple of rovers. Over there. This one. I mean, it lasted for 15 years, which is an insane amount. It was. It was supposed to. Yeah. Three months, right? Three months. 90 days. 90 days. And then 15 years. It's so incredible. It's insane. It's really cool. Yeah. So. Yeah. No dust storms right now. No dust storms. No. That's good. That's good. Okay. Let's talk space life origin. Yes. Yes. Sponsors. Before we do that. Yeah. Yes. I want to just quickly tell people about our Patreon. Patreon.com slash Space Cowboys is where you can go if you want to support this show. Please do. So by all means, go there and subscribe to us on YouTube, Spotify, or whatever app you have. iTunes. I'm not a. I'm not a big Apple person. Neither am I. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry, Steve. I don't have iTunes. Yes. Yes. Without further ado. Egbert Edelbroek. Yes. Edelbroek. If I try to pronounce it a bit in an English version. I think it's all right. Egbert or Egbert. How do you introduce yourself? Well, it's like egg and a bird. So that matches. So egg, bird. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Egg, bird. That's cool. That's beautiful, actually. Egg, bird. Egg, bird. Yeah. Okay. Great. Okay. Space Life Origin. You have a plan. Tell me about the plan. Yes. Our plan is to eventually make sure that humanity will be able to learn how to reproduce beyond Earth in space. And what we do to achieve that is step by step researching the conditions and the possibilities for reproduction. And we translate those research results into a missions program. And we are actually preparing. We are preparing all those missions. Okay. We'll talk about the missions a lot this coming hour. But first of all, this tells me that you are imagining a future where we travel to the stars. Yes. Because if we don't, you don't need to reproduce in space. Definitely. Okay. So tell me how, why you expect a future like that. Well, it's not our idea that we have to expand our life beyond Earth. I mean, the big agencies. Like NASA, ESA and the rest. And also the commercial ones, Blue Origin and of course SpaceX. They're spending a lot of money on preparations for human settlements on the moon and eventually also on Mars. So what we are doing is just contributing a small piece, focusing on reproduction. Okay. And now that you bring up a base on Mars and the moon, I think the moon is a lot more probable and will... Probably happen sooner. Yes. Right? Sooner than the base on Mars. But if there's a permanent settlement there, you might also have reproduction over there. Right? Yes. Is that part of your view for the future? Definitely. Otherwise it would not make a lot of sense to put all those efforts and expertise and money and time into getting people on a place like Mars. I mean, if you can only stay there for one generation, that's a waste of resources and a waste of expertise. Yeah. Now, this is a rather far out plan. And there's been a lot of talk in the past about sex in space and what have you. Do many people tell you they think it's a joke? We have heard a few people and we've also heard media agencies that were not sure if we were really serious. Yeah. April Fool and all that. Yeah. So, yes. And does that bother you? No. We expected it. I mean, we understand that we are really innovative or disruptive and we understand that it raises all kinds of questions, all kinds of images and associations with big risks. So people who are not really into the matter, they might have worries, legitimate worries, and sometimes not so legitimate worries. But some people can hardly imagine that science is already working on these subjects as we are. Yeah. Who's going to pay for this? Yes. That's one of those legitimate questions. We have made an approach where we seduce the wealthy people to be part of our missions programs. And one of the first missions is a gene pool, human reproduction cells inside a secure arc. And this is called our first mission arc, referring to the arc of Nowak. You say human reproduction cells. What do you mean? Yes. Like female egg cells and sperm cells. Yes. So separately you can freeze them, shoot them up into space. Yes. Why? Because some people will perceive this as the ultimate insurance to mankind. We have backup seeds in a very cold place on Earth, just in case we might have a nuclear winter someday, some year. But even that would not be sufficient because there are more threats to life on Earth. Even an asteroid collision that we missed could cause a lot of problems. And even for circumstances like that and a list of more. This can be a solution that humanity can still continue to prosper and to live with this backup gene pool in space. That means, oh, go ahead Thijs. You said wealthy people might be seduced by this. Why do you think they would be interested? Well, we know a lot of people who deal with these groups and they're interested either in really protecting their offspring in this way, in this insurance. And they're interested in protecting their offspring. And they're interested in protecting their offspring. And they're interested in protecting their offspring. They want to have an insurance approach, but also they want to have an exclusive story. They're rich. They want to be part of the most innovative development that is there. So we are providing that aspect also for this group. And how much is a ticket? The tickets, we are fine tuning the exact numbers, but it will be roughly starting from $35,000. Okay, like a Tesla Model 3. Well, if the world can… I'm thinking of… Tesla Model 3, then they can also shoot their… Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking of freezing your dead body for possible resurrection later. Is it the same in the same league as far as interest of rich people is concerned? Well, we think our solution is much more realistic and the odds that it can be used are far more clear. But we understand… Well, to some extent you could say it is in the same league. Yes. Yeah. Is there a plausible scenario? Because on the one hand you say… Yeah. You can shoot your sperm and egg cells into space for possible use later just in case we have a nuclear winter or something. Is there a plausible scenario that stuff on Earth gets screwed up very badly so you're happy your sperm is up there for you to use later on? And also that you can… You still have the technology, the possibility to go out and retrieve it. Of course. Because that presupposes that something is still working down on Earth. Well that is one scenario but we also take into account that there can be scenarios where life on Earth is pretty much destroyed or at least the equipment and the expertise is not available anymore to retrieve this… But somebody should be left to go up and use those orbiting sperm cells. Yes. And by the time that these events could happen… Yeah. We expect that there will be permanent human settlements for example on the Moon as you referred to earlier. Oh I see. And if you want a certain diversity to… You don't want inbreed so you need a large back up pool with human genes. Yeah. Okay. May I ask how long do they stay viable up there? In the first arc it will be about 20 years. 20 years. So when would you be able to be operational you think? Within 10… We think within one and a half years. Whoa. Okay. Well that's quick. So basically for 20 years you can store your… Your offspring. Your genetics. Yeah. Your genetics. And but you would have to refresh it then at a certain point. Yes. So it's only… It can only stay there until 20 years after your death. That is our first mission. And of course we want to benefit from all… We want to benefit from all the ongoing technological developments, the ongoing lowering costs in the space, the new space environment. So we have relaunch programs where we benefit from all those technologies. We improve also the radiation protection, etc. So our next mission could be there for a hundred years. We don't know yet. Yeah. Of course it will be much more than 20 years but this is the first step and then we keep improving with relaunches. Yeah. And what we're looking for is the people that eventually use the stored sperm cells may not be the people who sent them up in the first place. True. That means that a person who pays for this may not be the person who uses the sperm cells themselves. Most likely. Okay. But that means that you're actually… if you're the rich person sending up the sperm cells… Yeah. …in at least one scenario you're doing it for nothing. Well… Except maybe… It depends on how you perceive nothing. I mean if you feel connected to something bigger than yourself, your family, your offspring, that could be your legacy. I mean that's… That's right. So somehow you're doing it for the common good. Yes. Maybe. Yeah. Okay. And maybe it's… could it be a status symbol somehow that you're proud of having sent your sperm cells up and telling your neighbor that they haven't? We definitely think that some of these people will feel it like that. Yeah. That's a possibility. Okay. That's fair enough. So about protecting the cells, you're telling us they may stay viable about 20 years, but astronauts going up into space… I don't know the exact figures. But staying in space is not very… Yeah. …is not viewed as healthy. True. So are you taking any measures to protect these reproductive cells physically? Of course. Like a big wall of lead around them? Of course we have a lot of interventions that protect these cells. We prevent part of the radiation damage to start with. We use cell treatments with the research institute that is helping us, and these cell treatments, they enhance the natural radiation. And also the natural DNA repair mechanisms. On top of that, we use shielding material, as you suggested, of course. And we have carefully selected an orbit around Earth where the radiation is, well, low enough that all these measures together can work. I see. So how high up is that? We are now looking at an orbit that is just under the Van Allen's belt, the lower end, which is about 500 meters. So 530 kilometers above Earth. Okay. But still there will… at that level there will be enhanced radiation because even when you do an intercontinental airplane flight, you experience more radiation than when you stay on the ground. Yes. And there's… we have these measures, these cell treatments, the radiation protection. A small volume like cells is far more easy to protect with shielding than a human body. Of course. On top of that, a human body has different radiation processing mechanisms than cells, and especially reproduction cells. So we take all that into account. And Cranfield University is one of our partners who has been studying also these effects together with a nuclear research center, which are helping us to define the right conditions to keep that safe for at least 20 years. Okay. And will this also be a big experiment? I mean, at some point you may go out and retrieve the stuff that's been up there for 20 years. Will they then be researched to find out how big the damage actually is? Well, before you would use these cells to make someone pregnant, of course, you will check all the radiation damage. If that is too much. But an experiment suggests that there's quite a big odds that it's not healthy anymore. And we can test the radiation environments, the space conditions on Earth in this nuclear research center. So the experiments will be done on Earth. And when they are finished, when we know that it is safe and it works, then we will start using the commercial cells from our customers. It sounds there are a whole bunch of moral implications here, which and I'm not sure which ones, but I just sort of feel it. You know, more morality is something you feel you can't, you know, there's no logical way out of this or something, but it's more that. So you. Well, like, how can we can you be sure that if you fertilize an egg that's been in space or you use sperm that's been into space for fertilization, how do you know that the baby that comes out of that will be healthy? Or that the pregnancy will be a positive experience and not something that's going to be really terrible for the woman? All legitimate questions which are addressed by a large group of experts on all these fields that we use. And we also look at the. What do the experts say? Well, they're not worried about what people who do not know worry about. But we understand that people still worry about it. And we have validation missions. So that is the experiment part where we will test. If this will cause. Yeah. Any problems whatsoever. And we also build for we build on the research that has already been done also by NASA by ESA on with animals with animals and with with mammalians who has reproduced in space already. And what were the results? Well, pregnancy is a very big issue. So we do we don't attach the subject. This is way beyond our potential. And there's nobody on Earth who can address this problem yet. So it's too far away. Yeah. So the radiation for nine months. And in a with a pregnant woman that that is a challenge way too far for now. Yeah. Because these cells are still dividing and everything. So they're more vulnerable than the cells of a grown up astronaut, for example. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's good to have a little bit of overview of what you do because we talked about the ARC mission. Yeah. The Lotus mission and the third mission. Can you just briefly give us an overview of what you do? So we talked about ARC and then what's Lotus and what's the other mission? Yeah. So the first mission is ARC. Yeah. So the research results that are the output of all these these preparations, they are the input for our second mission for our second mission Lotus and mission Lotus is about conception in space. So for the first time, cells, egg cells and sperm cells will conceive into embryos. And the first few the four the first four days of embryo development will also be in space. So not through natural sex, but inside a device which is called an embryo incubator. Let's talk about that more in a second. What's the third, the third phase? And the third phase in our missions program is actually giving birth in space. But that requires quite a lot of preparations. So that's many years. And that's the far away part. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So the Lotus then what's the use of having of conceiving or merging a sperm cell? It's actually in vitro fertilization IVF in space. Yeah. Yeah. True. Well, if we want to learn how to reproduce in space, we have to cover a lot of pieces. And this is just one of those pieces that we have to understand. We have to learn how it works. What are the complications? How can we address those? One of the outcomes of these missions is for example, we can learn if we can reproduce on Mars in terms of gravity. Gravity is next to radiation, a very big issue in space. Yeah. And we want to learn if the gravity level on Mars, which is only like... The lack of gravity. Well, in micro... Yeah. In space. Well, on the surface of Mars, we hope, NASA hopes, Elon Musk hopes that we can reproduce there. So that means that embryo development within an environment where there is only like 38, 39% of the gravity level as we know it here on Earth. We're not sure if that's going to be the case. We're not sure if that's going to be enough. And inside our embryo incubator, we can simulate this exact gravity level and we can study the embryos and if they develop in a healthy way. So in this conception in space experiment or call it an experiment or mission, whatever, you will be fertilizing eggs in... Under normal gravity initially? Reduced gravity conditions. Normal gravity. Normal gravity conditions. Well, we want to be absolutely sure for the first mission, but if there are no problems with that, with the outcome of that mission, we want to learn if we can reproduce on Mars with adjusted gravity levels. Okay. So in the first certain number of cases, you will simulate 1G? Yes. Earth gravity? Yes. And if that is successful, you are going to try lower levels of gravity? Yes. That's interesting. Okay. Now, we've talked about your target audience for storing sperm in space and the X-cells. So who's your target audience for conception in space? Also the... Partly the same target group, people who can afford to pay the cost. Rich and eccentric. Yes. Or also the prepper communities in the United States. That's a very big group, about 20 million people who are more than normal people worried about society or nuclear threats or all the other threats. Preppers are people who prepare for all kinds of disasters, be it financial or from outer space or climate change or whatever. Yes. So that is next to the wealthy people. Those are the target groups for the first two missions in terms of the normal consumers. But of course, we are doing this to help NASA, ESA, et cetera. So the space sector itself. All the parties involved. All the parties that are taking part in space exploration and specifically preparing human settlements because they need all this scientific output. Okay. So the picture becomes a bit clearer for me now. You have selected experiments that will have some useful scientific value and which also have a certain value for people down here on earth. So they might pay for it. We think so. That's the whole idea. Yes. And we don't want this to be just a rich people's thing. We think some people perceive this as a next step in our evolution. And that is a beautiful thing that should not be only for the rich. So we have a minimum of 25% of all the places available in the Ark and in our embryo incubator that we provide to people who cannot afford this at all from regions that are maybe poor, et cetera. I see. Okay. So would you say anything about pricing of this idea of conception in space? Suppose I want to have this done, what am I paying? Yes. Well, we think that the very first embryo that is conceived in space will be the most exclusive and we will find people who will pay a special price for that. That could be something like two or three or maybe $5 million. Okay. Because then you have your baby. Your baby is the Neil Armstrong of conception. Yes. There was a conception in space, right? To some extent. The very first. To some extent. Yes. Yeah. There once was, I forget the name, but there once was the first in vitro fertilization baby. Mm-hmm. And I believe it was a girl and she was followed for years as a celebrity actually. Yeah. I mean, we want to be very careful in selecting... Louise Brown is her name. Thank you very much. I had to go. I had to go. The fastest Googler in the world. Exactly. We don't want people who are into this just for their fame and fortune. We understand that that could be part of the motivation. I guess. But we want to select and we are preparing panels to choose people who have the right motivation. Who can handle this. Definitely. Right? And they will be guided. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's just what it... I mean, it's a good story for the people that can afford it, but it does seem like, well, like an extra... Yeah. This is an ethical issue. I mean, the baby that can be created in that way didn't choose for that. No. So how do you deal with that? And there are, of course, many examples in societies where there are very special babies and how can they be treated and guided and how can the parents be guided? So we can learn from that. Yeah. And I'm just thinking that with the first IVF baby, of course, the parents... I don't know her story, but let's just imagine that the parents wanted to have a baby, couldn't... Probably. Were unable to conceive. IVF was a way for them to be able to conceive. This just sounds like a cool, but extra sort of step that only benefits the general public. Yes. Or general researchers, general... Mankind. Mankind. But not those people who are literally paying for it. How do you bridge that gap? I'm not sure what you mean. Well, in this case, if you just want a baby, you can use IVF to be able to get that baby that you always wanted. In this case, it's shooting it up to space first for mankind and then hoping that you still have a baby in the end. I mean, not hoping, even if you're very sure. Yeah. If the sole idea was to have a baby, you could do it in a simple way. Stay down here. You could do it here. And here, I think you're saying, well, we need to do this as a species. We need to do this as a species. We need to do this as a human. We need to do this as a species. We need to do this as a human. We need to do this as a species. We need to be able to go out into the solar system. And I think we all agree on that, that we will leave this planet one day and we'll venture out. Somebody has to start. So I applaud you for starting. But the incentive for the people actually paying is maybe adding extra layer of risk to it. Well, we are not worried that there will be people very much interested in being part of this very first group. And we think that they will accept this extra risk. And well, if you can afford something like this, a price tag like this, you probably have learned how to be away from the media. And we will help in that phase also. I'm just thinking about the second and the third and the fourth person who want to be in the Lotus program. So it's good for them. But then eventually you... By the way, you're funding Lotus with the money you make from ARK, right? Partly. Yeah, partly. And then you've tried to build up. And then you've tried to build up. And then you've tried to build up. And then you've tried to build up. And then you've tried to build up. And then you've tried to build up. And then you've tried to build up towards this third. Yes. And there is... I think that that can be interesting as well, because there's another target group for our Lotus mission, which is the space tourism sector. Because many people who are really into this sector, they are worried that it will attract couples who can pay a lot of money to spend one or two weeks in space. And that there will be couples who will try to, well, to cause conception in a natural way. Have sex. Yes. And then there are family friendly shows where we can talk about sex. Great. It's funny because the whole issue with sex in space is there was once this couple. Do you know the story, Herbert? A couple of Russian astronauts. Russian astronauts. They were a married couple. Boy and girl. Yeah. Yeah. And went up to Mir or they went up to the space station. I forgot. I think it's probably been Mir, but I'm not sure. Officially sex has never happened in space. And it's... To this day, which is kind of strange, of course, by the way, I mean, it would be amazing. I would assume, you know, we like really interesting sex. You would be part of the 500 mile high club, right? Exactly. A whole new club. So it's amazing that that hasn't happened. Are you now telling us that you are going to maybe provide for it? No, we... Dammit. Dammit. I mean, it could be selling point. It could be a product. You can sell this. I'm just saying. If Lotus doesn't work out, hey, maybe close Lotus. This is an opportunity for the space habitat providers, such as Bigelow Aerospace or Axiom or others that are preparing this. Maybe even Virgin Galactic because all you need is an hour, right? The name Virgin Galactic is not applicable anymore. Oh, sorry. Yeah. It's not a Virgin anymore. Pun not intended. But if you do not regulate this, these couples will encounter... Pretty serious and irresponsible medical risks for the baby that is being conceived. And as a space habitat provider, you should have your responsibility and you should address this matter. And the outcomes of our missions and our Lotus missions, they can help them to address those issues in a good way. And at least for people who actually still want to take certain risks, we can at least help them to lower those risks. Yeah. And to improve the chances of success. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Have you thought about bringing these down as well, these IVF? So you can see... This is a five day mission. Five day mission? Yes. Not 20 years. Just five days conception and the first four days of embryo development. Any special reason why you choose for the first four days? Oh, yes, definitely. Our IVF experts explain. Oh, okay. So they explain that the embryo development on that stage is the most optimal day where you can research the embryos and check if they are healthy. I see. All right. Let me go back just for a second because otherwise I will forget this. About the ARC mission, I still want to know how you technically retrieve sperm and eggs that have been stored in space. Yes, there is... I'm not a biomechanical engineer, but I've seen all the slides and I've been... No, but this is about space technology. You have this reservoir of reproductive cells orbiting around the Earth. You decide you need the contents of those. So how do you pick them up? Yes, there is a retrieval mechanism connected to the satellite in which the ARC is mounted. So technically it can be retrieved. And... And... And... And... And... And... And it's picked up by an in-orbit servicing device, another spacecraft. Okay. Like you send a space shuttle up, if you have one. Yes. Robot arm. Yes. Pick it up. It's prepared for this. And there's, of course, a beacon who sends the signals so you can manage the docking procedure. Yes. You know the location, you know the orbit and everything. Yes. Okay. Okay. That's fine. We were talking LOTUS. Mm-hmm. We were talking about the space. You told us... What's the name of the third phase? Mission Cradle. Mission Cradle. So we go from ARC to LOTUS to Cradle. Yeah. And then the Cradle is purely conceptual right now. Yes. Cradle. Cradle. Well... No, no, no. LOTUS is conception. Well, and Cradle then as well. No, no, no, no, no. That's different. Mission LOTUS is about conception. Shall we finish LOTUS first? If you've got other questions about LOTUS, you're trying to get a clear picture of the whole thing. Yeah, I do. I think conception is about conception. I think that's the point. I think that's the point. I think that's the point. Yeah. I think conceptual or conception? Conceptual. There's the misunderstanding. Oh, I see. Conceptual. Just it is a... Where ARC is a very clear, maybe one even within two years program, LOTUS is the next step. But then Mission Cradle is just only exists on paper and is just really as a concept exists. But too many problems to solve. We have the serious ambition to make that a reality someday. But we understand that it will take... There's still a lot of preparations and we still need to wait for the outcomes of the first two missions. Of the first two missions. Yeah. But we have the real ambition to make that happen one day. Yeah. Okay. If you still have got questions about LOTUS, we can talk about that. Yeah. I have at least one. It's about pricing, marketing and that kind of stuff. You told us the very first space baby would be... would have a price tag of about 2 to 5 million or thereabouts. So how will you price further babies? To cover all the costs involved. It will depend on the final capacity of the embryo incubator. We are still fine tuning that. We are not exactly sure. But it will be in the range of 200 to 300 thousand dollars. Okay. For a baby that's been conceived in space. Yes. But it wasn't the first one. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So you're saying that the first one is the mission cradle then? Yeah. Because... Yeah. So then please explain mission cradle. And I think this was the part that also gave you a bunch of headlines all around the world. We understand that this is the most spectacular and it raises the most questions and of course also legitimate ethical questions, etc. Because it triggers associations with very big risks and vulnerable people, pregnant women, highly pregnant women. Cute little babies. A cute little baby. Being exposed to the hazards of space. And to the hazards of being launched and the re-entry to Earth. So we understand that that attracts a lot of media attention. But if Elon Musk and NASA, etc. If they want to make their plans a reality, we will have to include this part as well someday. And what is this part? Please explain this. Yes. It is a 24 hour to 36 hour mission where a highly pregnant women will join a spacecraft. Not the spacecraft that are available right now, but one with a more comfortable G profile. So they will not have... This person cannot be exposed to the same G levels as the astronauts are being... Like 10G or something. Definitely not. But we are using the technological developments in the space tourism sector who are also preparing spacecraft with better G profiles. Because the spacecrafts that are used right now. They are only possible to use for people who have intensive training. Almost military like training. And we will of course not... Subject these pregnant women to the same thing. Exactly. Okay. So you need a rocket that has less acceleration than a regular rocket. But it will still have to reach space. Of course. It still has to reach orbit. Yeah. But we have there... Is that even possible? I mean, it'll take more fuel, I guess. It might take more. It might take more fuel. That is one of the approaches. But there are so many developments that are being tackled already in the space tourism sector. We just have to follow them. We don't have to invent it ourselves. Okay. And this person will be pregnant for about eight and a half months. So that means the baby is fully developed. And like it happens on Earth on a daily basis on Earth. The giving birth process. Yeah. Yeah. The giving birth process is being induced with... Yeah. You're not going to wait for nature to have its course. No. The planning is a very big issue. Yeah. You cannot... So you're using chemicals to start the labor process. Yes. The same that are safely being used already on Earth on a daily basis. Yeah. So my brother and his wife are expecting a baby next month. I would hope... I mean, I would never recommend her to be shut up in the space, like right before she's finally giving birth. I mean, I mean, it's a... May I ask where does your fascination for this come from? It's like it's so far out and I understand that the future will be vastly different than it is today. So one day somebody will look back at how I'm feeling right now and say it's old fashioned. But it's just, I just, I want to understand where you come from. Yes. Well, it's inevitable. It's we have to, if we want to leave Earth and we want to have human settlements, independent human settlements. Well, the thing that is inevitable. Yeah. The idea that is inevitable is conceiving in space, being pregnant in space and then giving birth in space. But the idea of shooting somebody up who is highly pregnant and then have her give birth in space is very evitable. I understand. Do you get me? Yes. That is the part that is, yeah, that's true. Okay. So it has to be, it has to be a lady who has so much heart for science and exploration. Yeah. And advancing humankind and rich. It sounds like you see a lot of risks that are being addressed in our approach. And of course that is what 99.9% of the people worry about. And this, this can only happen if those risks are addressed properly where it results in a risk level that is comparable to giving birth on Earth, you know, to Western standards. Yeah. And that is our, our, our goal. If it's not possible in that way, it's not going to happen. Of course, that would be very unethical. Maybe analogy would be a, like a train 150 years ago, putting a pregnant lady on a train 150 years ago. Totally irresponsible. Totally irresponsible. Yes. In a car or. Impossible. Maybe nowadays it still is. I don't know. Not a train, but a car. I'm sure it has happened on a plane. Yeah, exactly. On a plane. Oh yeah. So maybe, maybe one day you'll be right. But personally, what's your, what's your background? What did you do before this? My background. I grew up in a family where the environment sustainability were big issues in, also in considering holidays, flying or not flying. So be careful with, with the surroundings in terms of the environment. I've always had a fascination for space and space exploration and especially the human settlements that are being prepared. And I am a, I am a donor. I'm a sperm donor myself since about seven years. Okay. So in that role, I was, I learned a lot about all these different IVF techniques and one of the techniques, the embryo incubator that caught my attention and I was well, from my space exploration fascination, I was wondering, could that device be altered, re-engineered to, to work in space? And I talked about it with, with the director of this clinic and he was really interested and he explained the benefits. Yeah. The benefits that it could result in. And he was so interested that he was from a medical point of view. He searched if the obstacles could be addressed that he was thinking about. And he came back to me and he said, well, they're, they can be addressed really well. And I see a lot of ethical concerns and I have some experts in my network that you can talk to and you can, you can check, can all those other questions be addressed? Yeah. Yeah. And then I went to space technological experts and, and checks the, the, the, the technology, the tech, sorry, the technological aspects. And that's how it started growing and growing. And there became more and more people who gave really important arguments why humanity would, would need something like this. So that's where it started. Yeah. And your partner in this, in Crime and Spacelife Origins is? Yes. Kees Mulder. So he, he comes from more communications background, marketing, marketing and business background and you come more from a medical. I have a more scientific background. Scientific background. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So now I get the, I get the whole picture. Okay. Yeah. When it comes to ARK, you have about one and a half years, two years left. Yes. Are you already selling tickets or is it? We are, we are fine tuning, we are fine tuning the technical details. We are preparing marketing campaigns. The pre-sales, et cetera. So we're not selling the tickets yet. We are also, we need more funding to, to go to, to finish the next steps, to make prototypes, et cetera, et cetera. Finalize part of the cell treatment research. And of course the, the, the, the cost of the manufacturing. So we are also having discussions with, with investors and we are still open for additional investors to raise the money to, to make it work. Yeah. So what's the next? What are your big next steps that you need to take to get, get ARK off the ground? Make a prototype and finish the cell treatment research, the radiation tests. Yeah, exactly. The radiation tests, of course, but you don't have the, the ARK itself yet. You don't have the prototype yet of the. Well in digit, in many digital ways we have, but not, not physically. No, okay. But digitally. Yeah. How does it look? Well, we have an artist impression that is shared in our website and in many press releases. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It shows, guys, show notes. Show notes but Kinder, if you. Yep. And we are now looking at the details of the satellite where it's mounted in because it will be so called dedicated flight. So there is a launch with only our equipment on board, our independent satellite in which the ARK is mounted. It'll be an expensive one then? That makes it a little bit expensive but the, the new space worlds is really becoming more and more disruptive in terms of pricing. Yeah, prices are coming down. That's true. We are talking to Vector Launch, founded by Jim Cantrell, the co-founder of SpaceX. And they're really… You've already chosen your launch company, your launch vehicle. Well, the Cranfield University is also helping us in that process and another space company in Houston. But that is one of the options. And they have fairly cheap launch vehicles. So, like, what's the price tag? We're now… There are two scenarios. A smaller satellite can be launched for about 2 million. And if we make it somewhat bigger, the lifespan could be a little bit longer than we are looking at 3.5 million. Okay. And how many people's sperm and eggs are you putting in there? We're looking at between 800 and 1,000 containers. Okay. Right. Times, what is the price tag of sending your stuff up? 35. 1,000? Yes. 35,000. Okay. Yeah. That makes for… Times about 1,000. You're talking a couple tens of millions of dollars. Yes. Maybe euros. Isn't your one and a half years a little bit Elon Musk timeframe? As in… Too optimistic. A little too optimistic. We feel we need to be optimistic and ambitious in our timeline. We think it's our responsibility also towards mankind. I mean, there's still so much to learn in the total process of reproduction. There's still so much to learn in the total process of reproduction that we feel we have to be ambitious. But, of course, we also have to be realistic. So, we do take into account that it might be a little bit later. Yeah, exactly. What's the minimum you need to sell in order to shoot the first one up? Around 600. 600. So, that's doable. We are convinced that it's doable. Yes. If you know where to find the right people. Yes. 600 people is, of course, out of the population of almost, what, 8 billion. And you told us you're still looking for investors. Mm-hmm. Does that mean you still need a serious amount of money in order to launch ARK? Well, it's a multi-step process. And we are looking at an interesting budget to continue for the next few months. But, eventually, we will need about 12 million, 12 to 15 million. So, we do not have that full amount of money yet. So, that's why we're still open for people with deep questions. Okay. So, we're still in the pockets. Right. So, even though launching ARK would make you enough money to pay for the whole mission, you need some money upfront in order to make it possible. There are different scenarios and that is one of them. Right. What do the official big space agencies say about this? NASA and NASA? Well, a funny thing is December 2nd of last year, there was seven astronauts going to the ISS space station, International Space Station. And they were very excited. And just before launch, they were interviewed. They had a standard press conference. And that was also used to interview them about our plans. We had a press conference in San Francisco on the end of October. So, it was picked up in many countries and also by the space agencies. And, well, after this interview, we assume they have been chatting about it in space. So, that is interesting for us. But that's maybe not the answer that you're looking for. Well, I don't know. For example, we… What did they say? There's a YouTube video of this Q&A session, but it's in Russian. So, we're not playing the audio here, but we may put the YouTube clip in the show notes so maybe people who know Russian can look at this and decide about what's said there. And there is a news article with text that can be easily translated. Google Translate, yeah. It's also in Russian. It explains what the interview is about. Sure. And how they respond. But I guess my question is why have NASA or ESA not done something similar? Yes, we have that firsthand from someone who researched human reproduction in space, guided by NASA itself, Dr. Alexander Leyendecker. He's also a speaker on congresses, on space congress like in Texas a few months ago, where also Jeff Bezos, himself. Yeah. And he explained… He was sent to us as a kind of a fact checker because he… Especially the space tourism sector, he is part of the International Space Tourism Council. And the head of that council sent him to us to check if this is a joke or is it real and how serious are we, how much expertise do we have. So, we had a few long Skype sessions and he was really enthusiastic about it and so enthusiastic that we may now call him one of our advisors. So we also received his dissertation, his PhD dissertation on human reproduction in space. And he explained there's a lot of reasons why also the big agencies like NASA will not do what we want to do. What did he say? Well, one of the quotes from Alexander is that the politically explosive potential of taxpayer money being spent on sex research in space. That is one item. It's controversial. I mean, if you look at the history and developments like IVF technology, it took a few years before that was accepted and eventually embraced by the majority. Yeah. And space is a very PR sensitive business, right? Yes, it is. It is. And especially ideas with vulnerable people and sex research. Yeah. A lot of controversy. And bad publicity about this kind of venture could be bad for budgets. Definitely. I mean, politicians jumping on the wrong bandwagon could ruin your existence if you're NASA. Yes. There might be some moral, some legitimate moral, you know, resistance as well. Yeah, sure. It's taxpayer money and you don't get, you can lose the support from the public if you are dealing with a lot of people who are not in the business. Yeah. So, it's not a good thing. Yeah. It's not a good thing. Yeah. It's not a good thing. It's not a good thing. Yeah. It's not a good thing. Yeah. It's not a good thing. Yeah. I mean, it's a lot of things you told us today. I mean, sound controversial to me, like always open to hearing your ideas, but I can imagine that if you are starting to do this. That's with all the pioneering and innovation that you can expect. Exactly. But even after, 40 years after abortion was legalized in the United States, you still have regular protests, of course, and there's many countries in the world where this is still not allowed. Not allowed because the moment you start touching babies or new life, people get really, understandably, well, touchy. So, it's actually a very comfortable thing for, I think, mainly NASA being an American organization, not having to touch it and have some outside organization taking the heat. And this is exactly one of the outcomes of the research that Alexander Leyendecker did. Mm-hmm. And I'm happy that there was one first pioneering group like us who was doing this. And he explains that that would be the ideal way also for NASA, also for SpaceX. Yeah. In your own view, are you taking a lot of heat? It doesn't feel like that. But I do personally feel that if you see opportunities to contribute to, well, the world, I think then you have the responsibility to do that. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Also, the way you have organized it, you're also preparing to make a shitload of money. Not making, but using. We're reallocating money from the rich to helping mankind learn how to reproduce in space. You mean the money you make will be reinvested in realizing the next goal, like money from ARC being plowed into Project ARC? Yeah. Project Lotus and money from Lotus being put into Project Cradle. Yes. If I would be only interested in just making money, there are so many other ways. I have experience in making money. I left that business because I felt I could contribute in a more impactful way to society or the bigger thing, the world. Yeah. Fair enough. Just a question. Do you have any competitors? Well, I almost forgot. No misunderstanding. NASA is working on this, but on a very, very slow level. So they're- Below the radar. Almost. Almost. I mean, they present themselves, which we know from this researcher who worked for NASA. It's watching paint dry. It's really small steps, and that's the only pace they can afford to show to the public. I mean, taking very, very small steps at once to show that they are working on it. So if we have a lot of people in the room with us, we have to have a lot of people in the room, but we have to make sure that we're not overreacting. I think the reality is, I think we're going to have to be very, very late if we don't get the results that we want to get. We're going to be very late. We have to be very, very late. But if we don't get the results that we want to get, then everybody can still accept it. But I think they're going to be way too late. And humanity is going to be way too late if we have to trust those 15,000 scientists and the climate change experts and Elon Musk's and Stephen Hawking. They're quite credible parties, I believe. And they're really worried that even that already, just climate change will cause really big problems in around 100 years. Yeah. Yeah. already be too late yeah yeah all right well and with that we'll see we'll see one and a half years i think it's a little optimistic but maybe let's let's talk again in one and a half years let's do that i hope we still have a space cowboys podcast then i guess we will um okay if you like what we do you can go to patreon.com slash space cowboys and fork over some money we'd love that yeah thank you very much yes exactly and follow us on all the the streams where you were the stream uh it worked i think there's still some a couple of technical hiccups that we need to solve but everybody watched thank you so much we're making progress yes definitely step by step we too uh every day every week we grow and and our numbers have been good as well there's a lot of you out there so that's that's right thank you so much keep coming yeah exactly this has been space podcast number eight next week thank you very much we are going to talk uh with well rule aircons yeah rule aircons from uh from t-minus that's a dutch rocket company a dutch rocket company yes they're based in delft they originated from delft technical university nice and they launch rockets nice well i mean no uh falcon type big shot rockets but good dutch trademark rockets we'll see and they launch stuff yes can we talk about rocket science yes we'll know everything about it in a week's time everybody thank you so much and of course great being here thank you thank you so much thank you egbert edelbroek from space life origin thank you thank you herbert okay thank you thijs roos see you next time everybody bye you you you you