Internet from space, made in Holland

this is space carol's podcast number seven number seven hi thais hi my partner in crime across the tail yes hi herbert blinken steenstein what do you want to call yourself steenstein i don't care steenstein yes in dutch it is stein stein well welcome welcome back to all our listeners okay there's there's a lot to talk about today an awful lot an awful lot we have so many things let's have let's introduce him first kun jansen from hyber a space company over here in amsterdam welcome yeah thank you for joining today yeah and what kind of space company a internet of things connectivity company exactly so that's what we're going to talk about today they're launching satellites and covering the earth with internet connectivity super exciting and they're just beginning right we're only just starting yeah exactly oh nice we'll discuss all that yeah we're going to talk about there's so many things to talk about because so many things happens herbert it was insane news rich week it's very news rich but when we started this show we had discussions about how newsy it should be this show and then i was very much like no not too much news because it doesn't teach you enough let's have one story of the week each exactly how many stories do you have this time i don't know how many i the thing with news is when you just look at like everyday news like you hear something happening on the other side of the planet then i come from sort of a journalistic background where um well the philosophy was that general news is more entertainment and doesn't teach you necessarily about what really goes on in the world because it's just basically news is that's what's different from yesterday so every day you you hear what's different from the norm and that's that's a pretty weird way to look at the world that's why most news is bad news exactly yeah you hear about car crashes but you don't hear about all the cars who make it safely to work and back home yeah um but uh now yeah now i have i don't know seven eight eight news pieces okay so let's hurry up yeah because i think they all they all tie into uh broader stories good um so first and i never first no okay wait so first first our guest yes let's not be rude that's right let's not be rude what's your story of the week yeah i only heard about it recently so um i think this is also related to the topics we're discussing later on which is aerospace we have a short sleeping bar and it's kinda a permanent theme in europe uh kind of like all parents are like only parents uh care for their children and kids yeah i think that's to me uh i think it's i think it's it's designed to actually order to do things the way have been annoying when um the late way um the firstcka it's for when we our kids hit stand-ins as a way we do things a few minutes a day orgesetzt single and then we wait to find out kind of how the kind of the CARES program is um i'm the doctor modem special nertas domino park at taste they are i i i graduated late him 5ész Exactly. And we have seen this issue being raised, especially in the Dutch community before, on multiple occasions, also in the UK, where actually incidents happened. I remember. And now it's actually not the regulations, but the manufacturers themselves, or the market, stepping in and creating some kind of policy to make sure that it all happens. Which is funny to me, because it's a Chinese manufacturer. So I'm happy to see these kinds of... Chinese don't want this bad rap and tell one another, we have to make sure that our drones don't trespass on the airport. Exactly. DJI, the drone maker, already has released updates for their drones so that you cannot fly it in certain zones. I'm actually not even updating my drone, because then I won't be able to fly it in the garden where we have a little house, because it's just in the aircraft zone. It's very illegal, but I don't fly it high. It's just that I know that the moment I update it, now I get a warning, but the moment I update it, I literally can't fly it anymore. So I will still... Now it's my responsibility, and after that, it's just impossible. So I want to be able to at least, even if it's in the living room to test it out or something, I want to be able to still turn it on. Sooner or later, they're going to switch it off if you don't update. Yeah, exactly. Sooner or later, that will be over. Yeah. And it will be impossible to fly a drone anywhere where it's not allowed. Updates as an instrument of power. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Thanks for your news. Yeah. Okay, Thijs. Well, or Herbert. Get ready. Maybe you first, and then I'll fly through all the news. Yeah. I have one simple new thingy, and that's a video, and it's a flyover of Europa. So that's not Europe. It's Europa, Jupiter's moon. Is it by Juno? Who flew over Europa? It's based on data from Galileo. Oh. But it's new. It appeared on YouTube just a couple days ago, 9th of February. A reanalysis of the data. Yeah. Oh, so look for that in the show notes. Let me have a quick look. Yeah. And it's a perfect bridge to my first story. So it's old Galileo data creating a new... Yeah, 9th of February. Oh, yeah. Great. This video appeared, and it's based on Galileo. Nice. And it's fun. There's only one weird thing. It's about five minutes or something. Mm-hmm. You're flying backwards. Oh. And I think that's not a very good idea. You want to fly forward, right? Other than that, it's spectacular. I mean, you're so close to the surface, and it really looks like a map with highways and junctions and everything. Really? And I mean, Europa's surface is alive. Europa has this... Yes. It has this strange line surface with dots and strange patches. Mm-hmm. And it's very interesting, and you can't help wondering, how did this form? We need to go there. Yeah, we do. We need to go there more. We need to land there and walk around, you know? Yeah. Well, you're against humans in space. Carrying spades and everything. No, not space. Spades. Oh. Carrying spades. Spades, exactly. Yeah. Digging holes. Nice. And whatever, yeah. Nice. So we'll put that in the show notes, and everybody can watch. Yeah. Nice. So go ahead. Well, okay. So I'm not a newsman, but here I go. So, Ultima Thule, you know, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The object that was visited by New Horizons. We talked about it a lot. Space Cowboys podcast number one. Number one, definitely. Everybody thought it was some sort of like Potato Man. It looked like a snowman. Yeah. It does not. They reanalyzed the data, and now it seems to be more like two pancakes slapped together. It's like two weird pancakes instead of a snowman. Joined at the edges. Joined at the edges. It's like a super weird. It's even weirder than it used to be. Yeah. Yeah. I saw some clickbait saying, scientists are shocked by the shape of Ultima Thule. I'm not sure how shocked they are, but yes, it's pretty cool. It's a weird little shape. I suppose they were excited. Yeah, they were excited. But that was fun news. Less fun news is that Mars One has gone bankrupt. They have a foundation and a venture, and the venture went bankrupt. Mars One, as people might know, the sort of, well, out there idea to get people to Mars in a... sort of like reality show. Yeah. And fund a mission through that. And have a one-way trip. And have a one-way trip also, which would make for amazing television. You know, people start eating each other, all that stuff. Everybody dies. Yes. But NASA said it, yeah, it was unethical. And a lot of people seem to not take it seriously. I've spoken to some of the guys a couple of years ago, and I think they were always more about inspiring people and getting that conversation going. Than literally, actually, really going there. Well, you know, they kept pretending they were going. Who really thought that was the case? Like, I see on Reddit everywhere, I see, oh, it's such a scam, and it's such a scam because people paid $25 for a ticket. Really? If you're paying $25 for a ticket right now to Mars, are you seriously considering that you have a ticket, like in 2030? Really? No, not me. No. No. Hopefully, we will have them on the show one day. We've been in touch, but we'll see. Yeah, we have invited them, and they're not doing it now, but they may do it in the future. Yeah, in a few months, they'll probably be on the show to explain what happened. Until then, just a press release. So they've been declared bankrupt as of January 15th already, actually. And by the way, they issued a press release telling the world that they're talking to a new investor. Yeah. And well, that's maybe part of the scam or part of the joke. Or part of the inspiration project, like you call it. Exactly. They're talking to a new investor, and they may not stop doing what they did at all. Yeah, the foundation remains there. The foundation, yeah. So the vision is still alive. You could even say going bankrupt is a publicity stunt. Well, they're in the news again. Yes, exactly. Yeah, getting them in the news. But I think my money is on Elon right now. Tell me about Elon. I think that he at least… He has a very technical and practical idea on how to actually get there. Oh, yeah. Not in the least because he now knows what the ticket price is. That's the next story. $25. $25. Slightly updated. No, Elon Musk is confident, as he said, that moving to Mars will one day cost $500,000. So half a million. That's incredible. For a return ticket. Well, technically, actually, it's for the one-way ticket to Mars. Elon Musk always says that the return ticket is free. Really? If you don't like it on Mars and you want to go home to your mom, then that's allowed and it's free. Because there'll be supply spacecraft coming in all the time. Exactly. So there'll be rockets flying there. And there'll be room for the way back. Yeah, they're flying there and they're flying back. So if an empty rocket is going back to Earth, then you can just hop on to go back home. Yeah. So you feel lonely at Mars and then you stay in another rocket for six months when you run. All by yourself. Yeah. Exactly. Great. I'm not sure if he thought about that. But at least we now know. He says half a million. He's another skeptic. Exactly. But possibly the ticket price might drop down to $100,000. It's dependent on the volume, he says. Eventually, so $100,000 to get to Mars. That's attainable. Not really, but if you sell your house or something like that. That's his idea. If you sell your house, you can move to Mars. You know the rules. The thing with this kind of estimates, they go up before they go down. And they take longer. Yeah. Especially with Elon Musk. Yeah. Then, next story. That's, well, let's do the senator. Somebody is, Mark Kelly, the former astronaut, is running for Senate and not just any Senate seat. It's old. It's John McCain's old seat. He's doing a John Glenn there. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And he. He had a brilliant campaign ad. And he was campaigning on the overview effect. And it would be great if we can just have a little clip of it. Yeah, we can. Yeah. You know, seeing that sunrise from space for the very first time, it is incredible. You know, it becomes pretty obvious pretty early when you get into space that we're all kind of in this together. Yeah. And I launched on July 4th of 2018. 2006. Gabby thought I was going to propose from space. And then what happened? Nothing. Nothing. I'm an identical. So he's. This is Mark Kelly talking to his wife, Gabby Giffords. And she by her. She herself is a well-known congresswoman. Yeah. She got shot. She got shot in Arizona during a campaign event. Yeah. 2010, 11, something like that. Recovered very well. And she recovered. Yeah. Very well. I mean, she. She's speech impaired, I think. She still has some trouble, but she... Well, they're a politically active family. Yeah. And of course, he's the brother of Scott Kelly, of One Year in Space fame. Yeah. While Mark stayed at home to be a control experiment. Yes, exactly. So they did all these tests on Scott, and then Mark was only just to see what the neutral was, because he's an identical twin. So he's really a powerhouse when it comes to sort of like the respect that they have already garnered. And now suddenly he's going into politics and he's using the overview effect as the kickoff of his campaign. The overview effect, the effect that a lot of astronauts describe when they see the Earth in the darkness of space. Yeah, you get sentimental and everything. Well, you call it sentimental, you get real. I would say real. You get real. You start thinking about the environment and being nice to people. And that our political borders are just that, political borders. And that we, there's only one, we are one species and we should stop. No, but seriously, it's almost a religious experience, right? I would assume I have never been to space, but I can, yeah, that's what the astronauts that have witnessed it have told me. Although Mike Massimo, the astronaut, I once talked to him and I asked him about it. He was a lot more sober about it. He was just like, yeah, yeah, it's cool. It's very cool. It's a nice view. It's a nice view. Yeah, I graduated at a company that would actually provide these kinds of services, sending people to a hundred kilometers and back to earth. Yeah. And for me personally, the motivation to actually graduate at that company is to get people to that spot and that way have the highest impact on people's, you know, to change the world for a better place. Yeah. So you're talking about Virgin Galactic? No, the once competitor, because they went bankrupt as well, but it's called X-Core. X-Core, the company of Michel Molle. Yeah. Back in the day. Yeah. Dutch entrepreneur. Did I hear Virgin Galactic? Uh-oh. I said the word. Yes, because I got some news about Virgin Galactic. Tell me. Oh, here we go. Richard Branson knows he when he's going to space, right? He knows? Yeah. Richard Branson, you know, the CEO, of course, of Virgin. Yeah. His company, Virgin Galactic, is gearing up for their first space flights. They had some trouble along the way, of course, but from the desert in New Mexico, they're going to shoot people up to sort of the highest regions of the atmosphere so you can experience, the darkness of space, see the curvature of the earth and be weightless for just a few minutes. And have this religious experience. And have this religious experience. Exactly. And then, so he now knows the date. They're all trying to get him up there on the 20th of July. And what is the 20th of July, ladies and gentlemen? The birthday of the first moon landing. The moon landing. Yeah. Exactly. So it's 50 years. Yeah. It's 50 years after the first moon landing. So they want to turn it into an event. I think there's going to be... It's the birthday anniversary, right? Yeah, anniversary. Yeah, exactly. Nobody got born. I mean, Neil Armstrong didn't get a baby on the moon. So there's going to be so many things happening on July 20th this year, I think, for the 50 years. But that's what they're going for. It took a while. Yeah, very cool. And speaking of dates, we know another date. This is for people at home. We know when Andromeda, the galaxy next door, is going to crash into the Milky Way. Oops. We always thought... Buckle up. Yeah, buckle up. We always thought it was going to be 3.9 billion years. But as it turns out, it's going to be 4.5 billion years from now. Okay. That's one thing that we have scheduled. Then we're safe for now. Yes. Yeah, we're safe and we can chill. And it was all based on Gaia data. Gaia, of course, is a project that we talked about a few episodes ago. Absolutely. Exactly. A few episodes ago. Anthony Brown. Episode, what was it? Four? Yeah. Maybe. So all this data, they keep on reinterpreting it and drawing these new conclusions from it, which is great. Yeah, which is great. Which almost rounds it up. There's one last thing. Jim Bridenstine, the space agency, NASA's administrator, called for the best and brightest of the American industry to help design and develop human lunar landers because he's really set for the moon now. He said, we need to go back to the moon and we need to stay there and build a base. So he sort of had a kickoff event for that. So what's the idea? NASA can't design their own lunar landers? I'm not really sure. It was just a pep talk. Let's get the public involved. Let's get the public involved. And he was looking for the best and brightest to help him with it. It's always a good idea. Yeah, always a good idea. And then, excuse me, we're going to the last piece of news that I have, but it's perfect. It basically ties in, Koen, with the company that you have because it's about internet in space. It would be great to be able to go online anywhere in the world. Greenland, Antarctica. Exactly. Yes. Imagine you're deep down in the jungle and you see all these beautiful animals and you have no way to look on Wikipedia what animal it is. Or share it on Facebook. Or share it on Instagram and Facebook. It would be terrible. Like kids everywhere are getting panic attacks over that thought. So a lot of people are working on it. Yeah, on internet in space. Koen, you are going to talk about it, but Elon Musk is as well. And he just filed, well, he asked for permission to build a million ground stations. What? A million? Say what again? A million. He wants to eventually build a million. Well, SpaceX has already received the go-ahead from the FCC on the launch of almost 4,500 satellites that will make up its Starlink internet constellation. But it hasn't really said what sort of, what it's going to, what they're going to do. But they need these ground stations in order to downlink it all and to actually get people connected to the internet. So it's not that he will start with building a million, but they've already asked a permit for up to a million of these ground-based stations to the FCC. So just to clarify the situation right away. Yes, hold on, Koen, because that completely wraps up all the news. Da-da-da-da. Da-da-da-da. Da-da-da-da. Da-da-da-da. Da-da-da-da. Da-da-da-da. Da-da-da-da. Yes. So, Koen. Yeah. Before you start, we have one thing, and then you can enlighten us on all these things because we don't know what we're talking about. Sponsors. And you do. Yes. I want to go to the people that support us. Go ahead. Well, where do they support us? On Patreon. On Patreon. What's the URL? Slash patreon.com slash spacecowboys. Exactly. And that's what keeps this show going. If you want to support this show, go to patreon.com slash spacecowboys and support us. Support us there. And now. Cool. Without further ado. Hyber. Coen Janssen. Hyber. Coen Janssen. Yeah. Before actually jumping into Hyber itself, it's of course always very nice to clarify the situation between internet via satellites and internet of things. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because I think that's a great first start to actually know what Hyber is doing and what other people are doing. Because it's different. And there's multiple markets, right? Exactly. Multiple applications. So the thousands, maybe thousands, I don't know, how many ground stations, are required for Starlink is because they basically have a gateway or a big dish somewhere in the middle of the jungle you just described. And you can basically, just like with Wi-Fi, connect to that one gateway. And that gateway will then connect to the satellites. So therefore you still need a thousand, probably even more, ground station everywhere around the world to cover that area. So it's not a direct to satellite kind of connection. Where Hyber, we only transmit very small, pieces of data, which is 144 bytes, basically a tweet or an SMS site message. And wherever your asset is, it directly sends it to the satellite. So you don't need any additional infrastructure on the ground to actually get your data to the satellite. You go straight from the object. From the thing. From the thing. From your thing. From your thing. From your digital thing, straight to the satellite. Yeah. 144 bytes as a packet. Yeah. And how many seconds does it take? Less than one. It's like a few milliseconds. Yeah. So why? We're in the Earth orbit. Yeah. Exactly. So, but then you can also, so it's 144 bytes a second, I would assume, or it doesn't work that way. Then again, if you want internet, you're used to real-time connectivity, always on broadband, whatever you want to call it. While with Internet of Things, these devices only communicate once in a while. So again, depending on applications, you only need to send your message once in so many times. So with our system right now, we have two satellites up in space. We can basically cover the whole Earth, at least, once per day, and then at the poles, about 16 to 20 times right now. However, that means that the modem and the devices on the ground are basically sleeping most of the time. Then waking up and the satellite passes over, sends that data, goes back into sleeping mode. So the power requirement is also extremely low for our network. And what sort of things are we talking about? Like weather stations or what sort of objects do we need to think about? Yeah, so, HYBR itself only focuses on the connectivity part. So we are getting integrated into all kinds of sensors. But that goes from weather stations indeed, to agricultural sensors, to basically container tracking, logistics, silo monitoring, whatever you name it. And does this already exist in some sort of way? In a very expensive way, definitely, because there are already other satellites out there. On the other hand, there are things like LoRa and Sigfox, which is Internet of Things connectivity in rural areas. So here in Amsterdam, for example. A rural area? Urban area. Oh, urban area. Sorry. Sorry for that. No worries. So there you can already connect, but that's only about 10% of the world. So therefore, our system basically takes over connectivity for that remaining 90%. Ah, okay. Yeah. So that's what you do. Mm-hmm. And you have launched two satellites recently. Was that January, December? The first one was end of November and the next one within a week. Oh, really? And that was your first one? Yeah, those were the first two. Yeah. And where were you at that moment? On both occasions, I was actually in Amsterdam at the headquarters of our company. The week before though, I was in California to watch it live, but it got postponed, postponed, postponed. I went back. Was it Vandenberg? Thijs knows what you're talking about. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Was it Vandenberg Air Force Base? Yeah, exactly. Late November? Oh, wait, no, wait. I was for it. Yeah. Yeah. Eventually, it went up in the beginning of December. Oh, okay. Yeah, it's a different one than I saw. So, yeah. So, yeah. So, you have these two satellites up and I guess they're in polar orbits, right? Yeah, that's correct. Yeah, so they're going over the poles, North Pole, South Pole and all the way around. And since the Earth is rotating, within a certain timeframe, you cover every piece of ground on Earth. Yeah, so basically what happens is it goes from pole to pole, as you explained, about 16 times per day. Yeah. And therefore, as the Earth rotates underneath it, it basically scans or peels off the Earth like an apple. And we see places at the equator at least twice per day and then at the pole 16 times. Yeah. Per satellite. Per satellite. So, with two of them, we already see every place four times. And are they in very separate orbits? Like, where are these two? So, they launched and so where did they go, sort of? They have different altitudes. So, therefore, one is about 500 kilometers altitude. Yeah. And the other one is about 575. So, because there's a small difference, the one is basically undertaking the other one. Yeah, they're different orbital periods. Okay. Yeah. And are they part of a larger constellation that's coming? Definitely, yeah. How is that going to work? Well, over time, we need to launch more satellites towards the network to basically have more demand. So, we have more capacity. Yeah. But also, as we add more satellites to the system, we also have better surface levels. Yeah. So, we have more coverage, basically. Right now, we say in Europe, for example, we can serve you four times per day. But as we add more satellites, the current plans are to add even more than 100. We will be able to go to real to near time or near to real time connectivity. And do you have paying customers? Tons, yeah. Tons? So, over 50 have signed up already. Yeah. And most of them are ready to deploy once we commercially launch the service, which will happen in a few weeks, for sure. So, you haven't launched the... So, right now, you're testing? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. And so, what sort of companies are they? From asset tracking companies to agricultural companies. To give you a good example, there's a company in Belgium, it's called Ovinto, and they monitor the unpowered real assets for companies such as Byron, Bazaar, and Dow Chemical. So, eventually, the end customer that's basically using the data, they're going to be able to get the data. And the data are the Fortune 500 companies that everybody knows, but our paying customer is then the small monitoring expert, so to say. And what sort of assets do they monitor? So, the goods that are being transported via the railroads. Ah, okay. Yeah. They need to be monitored where they are for insurance, for safety. So, that's like what you said, container tracking. Yeah. Yeah. And then, so every few... So, considering the coverage that you said, so a few times a day, this... It will give a bleep out. Yeah. Okay. So, this is where I am, this is where I am. And there was no existing technology that could do this before? Well, there are two options, of course. First, you have terrestrial connectivity, as we call it. So, that is either GSM or the Internet of Things connectivity is like Sigfox and LoRa. There's a few possibilities, right. But they have limited range. And therefore, especially... Limited coverage in some cases. Yeah. They go in and out of these areas. So, you want a solution for the full trip. Then you come to connectivity via satellites, which is very power hungry, but also extremely expensive. So, what we offer for six euros per year, competitors from the traditional satellite industry offer that for 20 euros per month. Wow. But six euros per year. Okay. For, let's say, a... Once per day. For 144 bytes... Once per day. Once per day. That's an negligible amount of money. Yeah. Well, it's a... A high volume game. Yeah. Okay. So, you're trying for... A high volume thing. Yeah. To get so many customers... Yeah. That is going to... You're going to end up with a significant amount of money anyway. Exactly. And so, you say it's 144 bytes. I'm pretty intrigued by the tweet size because it's so small, right? Where's the bottleneck in this? Is this just the way you earn your money so you sell only a few bytes? Or is it the satellite itself that cannot handle more? Is it the data that's the most important thing? Yeah. So, the question is, how do you get the money? For the satellite? For the satellite? Yeah. For the satellite? Yeah. So, the satellite? Yeah. So, the satellite? Or is it something that has to do with sending it up there? The funny part is that most of the customers do not demand more data. So, what they are used to with Internet of Things is just, hey, it's me. Okay. Or I'm on. Yeah. So, you have 12 bytes of data or something. Yeah. An ID and I'm alive. Yeah. I exist. This is the temperature. This is the air pressure. This is the humidity. Or a GPS coordinates, maybe? All of that fits in the tweet. Exactly. Fits in the SMS. Yeah. No problem. But Internet of Things is even smaller usually. Mm-hmm. So, what we said is, okay, what do our customers actually need? And apparently, a tweet message is good enough to store usable data, I would say. Mm-hmm. Even for a full day. Because there are always two questions here. How fast do you want to have the data? So, is there latency between actually getting the data back to the customer? And how much data do they need to analyze the situation at hand? So, if you're going to scale this up to thousands of customers, I always look at the Internet of Things as basically my, I don't know, my fridge telling my phone to order new milk because I'm out of milk in my fridge. It's an example. Whatever. Yeah. That's how it started. Exactly. That's how it started. The oldest example, exactly. But this seems something as very much a service level, a monitoring service, something like that. Can you just sketch your future for me of the Internet of Things through satellite? Yeah. So, the lovely thing, and that's maybe a bit weird in this broadcast, but what we are aiming for is that we take out the sensitivity of the satellite part, right? If you are buying a SIM card of some of the telecom providers, you're not worried about where the operating towers actually are. So, of course, space is sexy, space is cool, but that part works. Don't worry about it. Right. So, therefore, I kind of... Mm-hmm. ...can't go away from the question, what does satellite IoT look like? But more IoT in general. And therefore, everyone always thinks that you know where your stuff is, you know what is happening anywhere around the world, but people don't. And I see in the foreseeable future that we will get to the point where everything that people want to measure can actually be measured. And we are apparently one of those companies that can help you get that data back to where you want to have it. Yeah. Nowadays, if a ship goes from Shanghai to here, you can track it basically the entire way or an airplane as well. How does that work then? How is that different? You have radar. You have Inmarsat. So they have a more expensive subscription right now maybe to something that's a lot more. I mean, if you have a ship, you can afford a bit more expensive subscription to some kind of service. I'm talking about a huge container ship, but you're talking about a very small, tiny object. It's a funny example because one of our customers is actually trying to catch fish in a legal way. Catch fish in a legal way. Wow. Wow. How unique. Yeah. But they have to prove that in that area that they actually caught it, that it was not a marine reserve or that it was actually allowed to catch that kind of fish in that area. And they have no clue. If we're talking about a fisher boat with six people rowing. They have no clue or how to actually prove that. So we made a system that they can actually press a button like, hey, I caught the cod here. Send. And then we will actually get that data and they can prove to the government and eventually to the EU and the USA that they are allowed to export that fish. So you being Hiber are also in the business of designing stuff to use your service, your own service. Yeah. Well, at the very beginning. We have to make sure that the use cases are actually out there and everything works. So we are very much involved in getting these use cases up and running. Yeah. Eventually towards the future, we can say, hey, these use cases have worked with these kinds of hardware, with this kind of software, et cetera. And then we can basically take a step back regarding the hardware infrastructure that we are now co-developing in some cases. I love these examples. Do you have another one? I can keep on going. Yeah. We have a few funny ones where apparently there are about 80 million beehives in the world. And everybody knows that beehives are, or actually the bees are dying at a very rapid rate in recent years. I'm sensing an internet of bees. Yeah. So these, about, I believe about 60 million of them are actually used for cross-pollination. And they are being, well, relocated. 60 million beehives. The beehives. Beehives, yeah. Beehives, not bees. Beehives. Beehives. Yeah. And they are being relocated every six weeks. And they are being relocated every six weeks. And they are being relocated every six weeks. To a new location. But to make sure the bees are okay, they need to know the location. They need to know the temperature and the kind of noise that they make. Wow. And then if, you know, the situation is not healthy, they can actually go there and take care of it. Yeah. But right now they are just dying all the time. And collect data on maybe areas of where more bees are dying. Exactly. Yeah. Where they're fluctuating. I'd like to know more now. This is brilliant. This is really cool. Yeah. It is. Yeah. And we'd like to know more about the satellites themselves. Are you ready for that? Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Let's hear it out on the satellites themselves. Tell me, what's in a satellite of the kind that you are using? Yeah. Just to make sure that the size that we have, we are having very small satellites about a shoebox. And within this industry, we call them used. And one U is 10 by 10 by 10 centimeters. It's kind of a standard form within the small satellite industry. Yeah. So our shoe-sized satellites are six U. It's one by two by three. So we use simple building blocks. Okay. Six blocks. So 10 by 20 by 30 centimeters. Okay. Yeah. So in there, we have deployable solar panels. So it actually has some power. There are antennas in there that actually make sure that we can communicate with the satellite. We have different antennas for different purposes. So we can do TT and CS, they call it. So basically update the satellite on certain hardware or a certain software, as well as the telemetry of the health keeping. So you can do some maintenance from the ground. Exactly. And then what it is used for in a real way is actually getting the data from the ground nodes to the satellite that has a certain antenna and then sending it back to Earth as well. Then within the satellite, we need to make sure it's pointing in the right direction. So it has an attitude determination and control system that it actually points the antenna towards Earth. And there are a few brain cells basically. So there are some computers in there. So it's related. Yeah. So it's related. It's relatable to a smartphone, but then it's based. Yeah. But all of that, all of the stuff you mentioned fits in a shoebox sized thing. Yeah. The funny part is that our next satellites will be even half the size. Wow. That's incredible. Who designs such a thing? It's basically another company here based in the Netherlands. They are called ISIS. Not the best name probably, but innovative solutions in space. We've heard of them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're trying to get a hold of them to appear. They're on this show. All right. Maybe later. Yeah. So they are one of the first believers in Hiber. And we have designed the first two satellites together with them. And they are eventually manufacturing, testing them, and then also operating until this very moment. Because as soon as we are operationally live, we will actually do everything on our own. Yeah. Beautiful. Now, can we follow a bit or a bite? Let's talk bites. Can we follow a bite from my weather station? On Greenland to my place back home? Yeah, of course. How does that go? Yeah. So first of all, you have a sensor at your weather station. So it measures something like data that gets into a digital bit. Temperature. Let's keep it simple. Yeah, there it is. And that little package of information is then sent to our modem that is integrated in your weather station. So our modem exactly knows when the sensor... We need to buy a modem from you too. Yeah, exactly. Is it a USB modem? It's actually... It's actually integrated. So it's... Integrated chip. Yeah. Yeah. So we buy a weather station with your chip integrated. That's usually Hardworks. Yeah. Okay. Do you get a commission? We are not into the hardware business. So we like to get rid of that as soon as we can. Okay. So you issue a standard or something. Yeah. And somebody else builds the chips. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But they are on the market already? Yeah. These chips. You can either buy them from us directly, but also on third parties already. Okay. And so then the manufacturers of these chips are... These things and devices. Yeah. They have to integrate that chip into their thing. Yeah. And you say that's not a good business model? I'm not saying it's not a good business model. I'm just saying that we as a connectivity provider... Yeah. ...are willing to sell subscriptions. Yeah. And therefore not in the hardware business. Ah, okay. Okay. Yeah, I mean, makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway... So my byte is passing the modem. What happens next? Basically, it's waiting until the very moment that the satellite passes by. Okay. Until that moment, it's in a buffering state in our modem. And when the satellite passes by, it actually awakes the antenna, I would say. And then the data is transmitted towards the... So there's some protocol and the satellite goes knock, knock. Yeah. There's a packet that it gets. Yeah. So there's no handshake, but it does get a signal like, hey, I'm above you, just send the data right now. Yeah. So the data is transmitted, goes pretty fast with lightning speed. At the satellite, there it's actually with the antenna. It's received again. Then all the data is stored until the satellite passes by one of the ground stations. Those are those bigger dishes that you have seen in the TV screens. There, the data is transmitted back to Earth. These really big ones in the jungle. That one, those ones, or just big regular dishes? Regular dishes. Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay, okay. I was about to say. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay. And from there, the data becomes available via an API. Yeah. Because most of the time, you already have data about weather stations. Via different channels as well. So therefore, you get the raw data. But if not, we can help you with a little bit of the visualization as well. Yeah, okay. But basically, I can log into your ground station or something. Yeah, the mission control area. Pick up the data. Yeah. And then the packet is yours, I guess. You can only see the packets that were sent by your devices? Or how does that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, okay. So everybody has an account. Everybody who has a subscription has an account and automatically gets their own data. Yeah. Yeah. And you have? 30 customers, you said? 50 by now. 50? Yeah. And when was your first customer? I think a few months after we launched the company. So the company is launched in June 2016, about two and a half years ago. And months later, we signed the first customer with letters of intent. Yeah. MOUs, that kind of stuff. We had to develop the rest of the technology because we basically started with a business ID. And then, okay. So we need satellites. Oh. All right. How do you launch one? Yeah. So we'll get into that later, probably. But yeah. So it started off with letters of intent. People are willing or companies are willing to test this out. And I think the first actual contract was signed maybe half a year ago or so. Oh, yeah. And so now that the satellites are up, are you providing them with data now? Are you providing data to your first customers? No. So right now, as of today, and this can change in days, literally. In two days? In two days. The 13th of February. Yeah. Yeah. So we're in the final testing stages of the satellites. And then we're comfortable that the connectivity is stable. And these antennas that are now at our customers can actually send the data towards our satellite. Okay. And these 50 customers, do they bring in six euros a year each? Basically. Yeah. That's not a lot of money. Per subscription. So of course there is- Per thing. Yeah. Per customer. Yeah. Yeah. Because one customer may have thousands of things. Exactly. Of things. Now it's becoming clear. So there you're getting some turnover. So there we are talking about- A million beehives times six. Exactly. So it's about a high volume play. Of course, every customer that we have till date is starting off with kind of like a small amount to make sure the system works. So say 50 or 100 cases. A test case. Yeah. But from there on each customer- And if you perform well. Yeah. Every customer is capable of scaling up to the tens of thousand. The upgrade. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's beautiful. Nice. And so how's the test looking? So till date? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the satellites perform better than expected and everything went through till date. Yeah. More than nominal, I would say. But everyone has some hiccups at some point. So it's the first time we do this. And of course we were not thinking that everything would go as smooth as can be. So yeah, we're learning, we're testing, we're tweaking. Finding out that software that is older actually runs better than the newer ones and then these kinds of things. Yeah. It's tough. Everyone goes through. Not to worry about it. Yeah. Okay. So how about ground stations? Elon Musk says he needs a million of those. Yeah. I'm still trying to calculate in my head how many years that will cost. Suppose you build one ground station a day. Yeah. All right. That means 1000. Why only one a day? In three years. Just a regular example. Yeah. Okay. That's 1000 in three years. Okay. So in that case you will need 3000 years to get to a million. Okay. Just an example. How many ground stations do you need? Yeah. So the beauty of our system is that the communication nodes on the ground directly go to the satellite. So we don't need additional infrastructure on that side. However, the data needs to go back down from the satellite back to earth. And therefore we need ground stations as well. And we have vision to have about 20 around the world. 20. And is a ground station something you have to build or is it, can it just be somebody with a saucer on their balcony, you know, a dish? Yeah. There are a few companies providing these kinds of services. However, because of physics, every frequency requires a different dish. So even though someone has a dish in their backyard, doesn't mean that our frequency can be received on that dish. And right now what it looks like is that we will actually build our own network as well just to make sure that, you know, everything is in control. Okay. There's some cost there. Yeah. A little bit. How much does it cost to build a ground station? We envision that it would cost about 200K, so 200,000 euros each. Okay. Okay. So there's some serious investment there. Yeah. Yeah. It's an expensive hobby. Yeah. Okay. How about investors? Well, how many satellites do you need? We talked about ground stations, but you need a lot of satellites. So ground stations, but you have two satellites now. How will that grow? Well, at very first we envisioned to be okay with 48 satellites, which will cover the earth at least on every piece every 15 minutes. But right now, because of the huge demand that we see, we have to add more capacity. So we're aiming at about 100 satellites right now. 100. And when do you hope that the 100th will be launched? That should be in 2021, I believe. What? That's super fast. 2021. It's in two years. Yeah. How many satellites a week will that be? Two. One a week. You have a lot of work to do. Yeah. Yeah. I'm only here for one hour. And a lot of money to spend. Because how much does a launch cost? Yeah. So the launch I just heard from going to Mars would only be 100K or 200K. Eventually. Eventually. We don't believe that so far. Right now we pay about 50K per kilogram, which means that we're going to be able to do a lot of things. Yeah. So we're going to be able to do a lot of things. Yeah. So we're going to be able to do a lot of things. Yeah. So we're going to be able to do a lot of things. Yeah. So we're going to be able to do a lot of things. Yeah. So we're going to be able to do a lot of things. Not the phone to the…? Okay. Not the phone to the transcript. No. We don't believe that so far. Right now we pay about 50K per kilogram, which means with the shoe size satellites that we have we pay about half a million per launch. Okay. Okay. So that's the same as Elon Musk says in the near future for Mars. So a little shoebox or a human to Mars, about the same price. Who's investing in Hyper? Yeah. We have quite some investment around …. Yeah. completed already, starting off with the founders themselves and eventually several business angels. You're one of the founders. Yeah. But recently, just before we launched our satellites, we have a venture capital firm that also invested in the firm. Yeah, so we are getting towards venture capital or family offices. And till date, we have raised about 20 million US dollars. Okay, that's cool. That's a cool kind of money. Tell me again about the launch at Vandenberg. What kind of rocket was it? It's the SpaceX rocket. Oh, it was on a Falcon 9. Yeah, Falcon 9. It was the one that was being launched for the third time. Yeah, really. So your shoebox was part of their... On board a reused rocket. That's what it amounts to. That's cool. That must have been a good day. Really exciting, yeah. When it went up eventually, yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it was a... A nice week in California as well while being there. But we were... Yeah. I think two hours after we landed, we heard that it was being postponed for a few days. So we stayed there. Then another day. Then another two days. And we were like, yeah, okay, forget about it. It was rainy and snowy around then. It was that... As well. Yeah. Well, and the wildfires were there as well. Yeah, the wildfires. Yeah, yeah. So a lot of going on. And in the meantime, we had the Indians. We were not communicating at all about the launch date, except for the fact that it was... It was going up. You're referring to the other launch, which was from India. Exactly. And the funny part is that we have two satellites, one being called Hyper 1, the other one Hyper 2. And because of the delays of the Indians at the very first, actually Hyper 2 would go up as the first one. So everyone got a bit confused. But the Indians made up. SpaceX got postponed and Hyper 1 went up eventually as the first one. Didn't Voyager 2 got launched before Voyager 1? Yes. I seem to remember. Yeah. Voyager 2 went up before. So there wouldn't have been a problem. No, exactly. It has been done before. And so when is the next launch? And will it be again on a Falcon 9? Yeah. So there are two ways forward here. The first one is actually going with rideshares, as we call them. So that is the PSLV in India or the SpaceX launch, for example, in the States where... I was wondering, how does it work? How do you wind up with one satellite on a Falcon and another satellite being launched from India? Yeah. So to basically tell the story, what we started off with is saying, okay, we want to launch a satellite. So we went to ISIS, the company in Delft, and they have a brokering service as well. It's called ISL. So they build satellites and they can organize your trip to space. Exactly. ISIS and ISIL. Yes. Yeah. Correct names. Yeah. So basically you go to a broker and they are the ones taking care of it from there on. Okay. So you just book a trip. Yeah. And somebody else takes care of it and tells you where you have to bring your satellite, basically. Well, we, as they built a satellite eventually... They do that too. All we did is say, yeah, well, sign a launch contract and they took care of the shipping and everything. Sounds very easy. They send it in the mail. Yeah. You and I can have a space company. It's easy. We should send something up to space. Patreon supporters. Please support us more. So we can shoot stuff up in the space. Just half a million dollars we will do. Yes. That's great. We'll do something. We'll figure something funny out. Yeah. Yeah. A microphone. I don't know. Yeah. Why not? To listen to space. Yeah. That'd be great. Space microphone. And so what do you think, when do you think, have you already submitted your next one? Yeah. So we have two launch contracts actually already in place, but those are with dedicated launchers. So that means that the rocket will be much smaller and our satellite will be the only one of... One of the only ones being... One of the only ones being in that rocket. So only a few. But will there be more than one... Can you shoot more satellites at once in one rocket? Yeah. So what you have seen in SpaceX and also with PSLV in India is that about 60 satellites can go up. And the world record right now is about 103, I believe. Wow. So usually two Range Rovers go up in the rocket. And now we're talking about two sized satellites. So you can fill it up with tons of these small ones. Yeah. And then share the cost of going up. That's why it's called a ride share. The only issue is that we have with these ride shares is, okay, so all of these satellites are going to the same place. Yeah. And that's not... How do you make sure they don't collide, for instance? Well, that is a technical way of taking care of things there that can be handled, but... Just release them one by one. Yeah. So there's a timer, software is there that is being taken care of. Cool. Cool. Cool. But we don't want to go to the rest of the world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we want to go to the rest of, to the places or the orbits where the rest of the guys are going as well. We want to go to our own orbits to make sure that we have a communicating service that will be covering the Earth at a continuous way. Yeah. You want full coverage, basically. Exactly. Yeah. So to go there, we need to go to different orbits and therefore we need dedicated rides. So we cannot go with the rest of them because they will all end up in the same orbit where our two satellites already are. So we need to have different orbits. Yeah. And sharing rockets means more or less sharing the same orbit after release. Exactly. Yeah. All of them are going in the same direction. You only have so much fuel and you can't change the orbit where you are very much. Not so much. That's what it's about. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And so this, you're, as we talked about at the beginning of this show, you're not the only one working on internet in space. Do you have competitors? Yeah. So the beauty of this thing is that as of day one, we are a global business because we see the whole globe. But that also means that a company from Canada or a company from Australia is a direct competitor. While what you see with apps, for example, you start in the Netherlands and then you expand to the Benelux. You know, that's a huge step. And then maybe to Germany. To Belgium and Luxembourg. Yeah. Yeah. So that's lovely. And then Europe and then America and yeah. Well, yeah. So there are like a handful of other companies out there that doing somewhat the same. We have one very key benefit that is maybe hard to understand, but if you are talking and communicating, you are using frequencies. So a radio signal goes through the air. And if you want to do this, you have to apply for a frequency at the International Telecom Union. So it's a United Nations body that takes care of all the frequencies anywhere around the world for your television, your radio, your microwave, and also for Internet of Things connectivity. And what we did is we applied for that frequency just before our competitors. And that means that all the competitors have to coordinate with us whether they are in the way of our devices. So that's a, yeah, it's hard to understand for a lot of people. And your answer is always, yes, you're always in the way. Basically you're on top of everybody else. To a certain degree. Yeah. Of course we have to be fair to other people as well. So we cannot say no to every situation, but we are in a very prime position there. Yeah. And very different from being able to do live streams from the jungle. Exactly. At a higher speed. Do you have any clue how big, how high of a speed you can get when it comes to regular internet and something like Starlink that Elon Musk is doing? Yeah. So what I've seen- Several orders of magnitude. Yeah. You can go into the terabytes per second. Terabytes? But that is then divided by these ground stations. Yeah, yeah. So from the satellite itself, you can have terabytes of data screaming down at one point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this is all, yeah, I mean, obviously radio signals, but I'm sort of amazed by how you can shoot it up to space so quickly. Like my wifi isn't that fast. Yeah. If you have enough power. Yeah. It's about power. Can you tell me, why does Hiber do this and why are you not doing what Elon Musk does? Is it easier what you do? Well, our model is more simple, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. Because there is tons of technology to be developed, even for our simple business model. And I'm going to put quotes in there, but what we saw as the market for our case is very simple and short amounts of data. And maybe later on, because right now we only provide one way traffic. So it goes from the sensor to the satellite and back to earth, but we do not provide customers with an ability to actually go back to the sensor and say, hey, turn on, turn off or whatever. Yeah. Because that's another technology that needs to be developed from our side. It's not there right now. Not yet. Okay. So you're working on it. Yeah. Towards the future, we will provide two way communication as well. But right now we say, hey, let's start off with the main business case, which is one way traffic only once in a while. And as we grow the network, we can add all these kinds of futures, but let's make sure we can make money right away. So you can be in business from day one. Exactly. And have income. And use that to expand your services. Yeah. Although we still need a little bit of investment money. Yeah. I suppose. And not to be too doomy or gloomy, but will you then be disrupted by these faster networks that might be coming online? Yeah, not so much because as mentioned a couple of times in this podcast is they need a lot of power and they always require a ground infrastructure. So as long as you have moving applications. Exactly. So we see these three pillars. Those being low cost, low power, and also global. So one frequency means one software, one hardware around anywhere around the world. Those three pillars are actually what we call our competitive advantage. Yeah. If I can make an analogy, just like nowadays, I guess the buses that you, if you check in here in the Netherlands, you have this digital pass, right? You bleep, you bleep a door and that all goes through old GSM networks. There's still a market for old GSM networks. Yeah. Yeah. There's still a market for old GSM networks for specific applications. Whereas it's very different from of course, wifi or 5g or 4g or whatever hangs in the air. So the internet of things or internet in space will also be a multilayered system. Definitely. Yeah. Okay. And I was going to ask, do you have the ambition to one day offer broadband services? But I would guess the answer is no, because then you will be competing with everybody else. Yeah. So I think that our company is Internet of Things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the next step would probably be doing something with the data instead of going to broadband internet. Oh, yeah. Very cool. When's the next satellite going up? At the end of this year, we hope to launch two more satellites. Yeah. Oh, okay. So your big year will be 2020 then for most of them to go up. Yeah, exactly. Okay, cool. So for the rest of the year, you'll be providing service to these customers, to these first customers that you have and further testing, I would assume. Yeah. So we have a lot of development still going on from a technical point of view, but the big thing is of course serving our first customers and scaling them, you know, from these first devices to the tens and hundred thousands. And then we need more demand, which ultimately being filled up by more satellites. Yeah. And will you be staying in Amsterdam as you develop the company? That's a good one. We have several entities around the world. So therefore… You mean offices? Yeah, at least entities and… What's an entity? So from a legal structure. Yeah. Oh, I see. You can have several legal entities around the world, like Luxembourg, two in the US. We're setting up a company in Spain as well. It's like a letterbox with your logo on it. Basically. And we are in discussions as well to actually open sales offices on multiple places around the world as well now. So do you need to do a lot of sales? We've been talking competition and everything. Do you need to do your very best to get customers or do they come flocking to you? Yeah, the latter. It's amazing how many applications we are not aware of that can be served with our connectivity. So yeah, the amount of applications that are coming in, we have about two or three new customers per day, basically knocking on our door. Which qualify as… Yeah. …as, you know, real good fit. We are astonished basically by the amount and apparently the pain in the market is so huge that we don't do any marketing, we don't do any advertising, we don't do anything. And you know, the pipeline is totally filled up. That's beautiful. That's a good position to be in. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. Very nice. And so for those listening and wondering when they can go online on, for example, Elon Musk's thing, that's not until 2025. So it seems that sort of… Yeah. …like what you're doing… That's a big head start. Yeah, it's a big head start. I mean, it's tweet sized, but it's… If you've got the company for it, then there's a lot of applications. Yeah. The funny part about SpaceX Starlink program as well is that they want to lower the attitude of their satellites now. So… Altitude. Altitude, yeah. So they want to go into the area that we are in as well. So we are already a little bit fighting there. Okay. So real estate becomes a problem. Crowded orbits. Yeah. More and more satellites are being launched. Do you need permission from anyone to launch a satellite to this kind of orbit? That's a good one because early last year we have seen a company actually launch without permission and that was the first time that ever happened. But usually, yeah, you need permission from your own government. In the case of the Netherlands, that is Agentschap Telekom that takes care of that. And they give the permission that everything you did at the UN. So the United Nations. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a very high level of regulations level that is being covered. And then the national delegates basically give you permission to launch a satellite as well. Okay. So real estate in space gets divided somehow. Will there be a day when somebody says no, it's full up there? I don't think so. You know… How many satellites can space handle? Until now we have launched about 1,500 satellites I believe in total. You mean… Yes. Yes. And humanity. And humanity. Yes. Oh. So that's not a lot. And… People are talking thousands now. Thousands? Yeah. Elon Musk wants to send up 12,000. Yeah, of course. And everyone is talking about thousands but nobody has the money for it yet. So I think, you know, as with every startup, some will fail, some will actually come there. There will probably be maybe one, two or three of these constellations in… towards the future. However, the one characteristic of space is of course that it has tremendous amounts of space. So, you know… Hence the name. Yes. Yeah. But collisions have happened in the past. They did. And also from our first launch, so the PSOV launch in India, he was put forward 30 seconds because otherwise it would hit into one of the other satellites. 30 seconds. 30 seconds, yeah. And 30 seconds times seven kilometers per second means already 200 kilometers further away in space. And so how high are your satellites? So one is at 500 kilometers. The other one at 500 kilometers. Yeah. And the other one is at 575. Oh yeah. And the 575 one is the one where Elon Musk also wants to be. And how long will they keep functioning? So the commercial life of the first two satellites, we expect them to be there for a year. One year. One year only. Then the next satellites would have a commercial life of three years. However, they will be in space for a few more years there as well. So basically they're degrading. They are going lower and lower and lower. And eventually they burn up in the atmosphere. Oh, that's nice. Okay. So you clean up after yourself. We have to make sure they are cleaned up within 25 years of operation. However, ours will be there within probably 15 years already. Okay. And I suppose a shoebox size satellite will not reach the surface of the earth again. No, everything will burn up. Burn up on the way. Yeah. Oh, nice. Okay. Sounds good. Well, good for recycling. Yeah. Hey Koen, thank you so much for being here today. This was a super interesting conversation. And I hope you enjoyed it. Thank you. And a little glimpse into the future. That's really nice. It was my honor being here. Thank you guys. Yeah, awesome. Okay. Lots of success to you. Lots of success. And the people watching us on YouTube can see that for the first time we're ending while the sun hasn't set yet. So that's nice. It's light. It's still light out. Spring is coming. Spring is coming. Yes, we're going around the sun once again. We're starting to tilt the right way again. It will be even lighter next week when we do podcasts. Space Cowboys. Space Cowboys number eight. Number eight. Yes. And until that time, you can follow us on Spotify, on your favorite podcast app or YouTube. We still haven't gotten the live up. Today was maybe going to be today. Maybe next week is going to be the week. Who knows? See you then. This will be a big surprise. See you then. Thank you so much, Herbert. Bye everybody. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.