Asia, space power of the future

Welcome to this fifth episode of Space Cowboys, brought to you by listeners like you on Patreon. Yeah. Hey, Herbert. Welcome, Thijs. Can you welcome our co-host? Yeah, we have more of a co-host than a guest today. It's Joeri Nortier. Right, yes. Welcome, Juri. Welcome. You were with us in the first episode of Space Cowboys, and now you're back. Yes. Good to be here. Yeah, and today we're going to completely nerd out about the space race in Asia. Everything about Asia. Yeah, because we don't hear enough about it. Some of the things are really opaque, you know. We don't know much about it. Nobody speaks Chinese. Nobody speaks Japanese. Exactly. We just have a little mole who's digging through the space race all the time, and that's Juri. Juri, you know, for some reason, everything about what's going on. We don't know much about it in Asia as much as possible. Yeah, because it's still a bit of a mystery sometimes, especially regarding China. But yeah, let's dive into China. Yeah, exactly. And how do you manage? Do you speak Chinese at all? No, no, no. I only speak English. I speak a little bit of Russian, so that helps with deciphering everything that's going on in Russia, but that's about it. I am. Where did you pick up Russian? During the years. Okay, of course. Of course. You just find Russian out on the street. Yeah. First, of course, our stories of the week. Stories of the week. Yeah. Herbert, you want to kick it off? Yeah. My story is about opportunity. And I don't mean the idea of creating opportunities. No. The Opportunity Rover, remember? Of course. It's been on Mars for 15 years now. It's incredible. And do you remember what the idea was of the mission duration on the surface of Mars? Something short. Yeah. Yeah. It's been going on for forever. For way longer than it's supposed to. That's right. It was supposed to last 90 days. 90 days. 90 days. Three months. No more. It's been there. What a lot of money for three months. That's true. But it's been toiling along for 15 years now on the surface of Mars. But the problem is it doesn't work anymore. No. Yeah. Right. There was a sandstorm, a dust storm some time ago. And it was put in sleep mode to save on power because during a dust storm, you don't have solar power. And yeah. Yeah. Okay. Problem is it didn't wake up. At all. Yeah. At all. And NASA has tried several things. And these days they've been trying, doing their last three efforts to wake it up. And it seemed, I don't have the last message yet about the result, but it looks bad. They've been trying three things related to the radio equipment on board. Mm-hmm. Which is interesting to me because I've been wondering why can't they just turn the bloody solar panels upside down or something? Just to dust it off? Yeah. Because one of the possibilities is that dust has settled on the solar panels. Mm-hmm. And it's just not getting any solar energy. But I mean, it's not getting any energy whatsoever right now, right? Well, at least it doesn't work. Yeah. It doesn't work. So they can't tilt it. They're now trying several hypotheses about, well, maybe it's the radio. Maybe it's the radio equipment. Okay. So they're not even trying to clean up the solar panels anymore. I don't even know if that's a possibility, but I was wondering why don't they have an air gun or something? Yeah. You know? Blow it off. Something. Do you know anything about this? What have they tried in the past that didn't succeed? Well, they waited for Mother Nature to clean the solar panels because sometimes you have wind on Mars. Yeah, that's true. I know. I know. Especially. In certain seasons. And that season is now upon us on Mars. Yeah. And it's coming to an end already. It is. So this is their only chance. Because the solar panels are completely fixed. And they are fixed because they didn't expect it to last that long. So they didn't want to build in any moving parts. Okay. Right. Yeah. No mechanics. So there's no turning them upside down. There's no vibrating them to shake the dust off. There's no air gun. Nothing. Nothing. That's just about all I can think of that you might have. So it's just waiting for the wind to maybe clean the solar panels. And if that doesn't work, then it's the end of opportunity. And have you heard about these last three attempts? No, I haven't heard anything about it. Neither have I. As far as I know, it's still open. Yeah. But that's very possibly the end of opportunity. And so help me out. The thing you read this week was that they tried their third attempt. And we just. Don't know yet. The thing I read was they're going to do these last three attempts. Okay. So they're doing. I haven't heard a result back yet. Yeah. Well, fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. Yeah. In happier news. In happier news. The Falcon Heavy is going to fly again. Yeah. We suddenly found out SpaceX is a heavy lift rocket. Of course, Elon Musk's toy. The government shutdown in the US put everything on hold. And now there's three weeks. So where the government is open and you know, the. SpaceX isn't government. No, but they need to file a permit with the FCC. Right. And that's so right when the shutdown was over, they slipped in there. Okay. Their request and it was granted. That's the government. Yeah. And it's going to fly in March. So that's the idea. Arab said like there should. The last time it was, of course, Elon Musk's Tesla that went up. Around the sun and it's still there. Very useful. Yeah. Purely a test, a test flight where the two boosters perfectly landed back on Earth almost simultaneously. But the central booster, the center booster was, it crashed into the ocean. So it was such a perfect test flight because, you know, everything went perfectly. And then there was this one thing that went wrong. So that's great because then at least you have something to improve. That's the way you learn. Yeah. That's why you learn. So hopefully for them it will continue. But this time, so they're really shooting something up. It's an Arab satellite. You said that it's a really heavy, big satellite. That's why it has to go on a Falcon Heavy. But they're getting out of fashion, sort of these big satellites. Yeah. It's a huge, huge satellite. I think it's about six tons, six metric tons. So that's quite a large communication satellite. Although the Falcon Heavy can do 25, I believe. Yeah. But that's, I don't think that's too. It's a huge satellite. It's going to geostationary orbit. Okay. This one's going for the geostationary orbit. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Much farther. Yeah. And so, but they're, these huge satellites, you see less and less of them? Yeah. 10, 20 years ago, these were the norm. This was just normal, sending a huge geostationary communication satellites out into orbit. But we've seen the last few years, we've seen very few new satellite contracts. And most of the new satellite contracts are, for the smaller satellites, the satellites like OneWeb, also Starlink from SpaceX, of course. So this is more the future of communication satellites. Smaller, more flexible, more agile communication systems. Yeah. And then the Falcon Heavy. You can put a load of stuff into these little CubeSats nowadays. Yeah. You couldn't, back in the day, you couldn't, you needed the big ones. Yeah. And there's also an added risk with these large satellites. Yeah. Because if something goes wrong, whether during the launch or whether during deployments in geostationary orbit, you lose quite a lot of value for your company. Yeah. I saw this video once, and it was from Planetary Resources, the space mining company. And one of these guys explained the Moore's Law for satellites. How these satellites became smaller and smaller, doing more and more. And I don't remember the... I don't remember the exact figures, but I'll look that up someday. Sounds interesting. Yeah. And of course, even though the satellites are getting smaller, the Falcon Heavy eventually is meant to bring big stuff way out into space, right? So it's... Right now, he can still make some money with these big satellites. We can assume that maybe in the future, what it's built for is for maybe bringing a whole base to the Moon, the Mars, wherever. Or parts thereof. But he's also aiming for... For more military contracts, because that's an interesting source of income, of course. And I think last month, we saw this huge spy satellite being launched from Vandenberg in the US. Yeah, that's the one that I missed. I was at Vandenberg in December, eagerly waiting at the beach for it to fly. And then it got canceled a few hours before. Next day, I was in LA. Then, you know, we were counting down. Seven, six, five, four. Oh, suddenly a hold. And again, I missed that flight. So I watched it live. When it went. That big satellite. Yeah. It's a shame. At home. In Amsterdam. All by yourself. Yeah. But these are the kind of satellites that weigh 15 to 25 tons. And that's what the Falcon Heavy is also quite usable for. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, and about this Arabsat thing, what does it do? It's a communication satellite. Okay. Arabsat is... Therefore, geostationary. Yeah. Arabsat is a Saudi Arabian company. It's been there since the 70s. And it's going to provide... Telecommunication service for the Middle East, Africa, and parts of Asia. Okay. Wow. Yeah. And so a heavy lift rocket. There's not that many to go around. We'll talk about it in a little bit. Like which heavy rockets are coming out of China, for example. So yeah. First, your story of the week, Joeri. Yes. My story of the week. Well, we have on-demand radio. We have on-demand audio. We have on-demand video. But in the next few months, we'll have on-demand shooting stars. Shooting stars. Shooting stars. Yeah. The things that you see... You can order something, some space dust, and like, hey, come here. Exactly. Yes. I'm here with my girlfriend romantically on a lake, and I want some shooting stars right now. That's right. Exactly. Well, that... How does that work? In theory, possible. Well, a few weeks ago, a Japanese company launched a small satellite. And that satellite contains about 400 small plastic pellets, small plastic bullets. And they're able to shoot those out of the satellite. And they will burn up in the atmosphere. And that'll create a small shooting star. How many of these plastic... How many of these plastic... It's a small satellite, so they only contain 400. And they're going to launch more of these satellites in the coming months or years. So they'll have a fleet of satellites out there in space. And they can reach almost every part of the world with those shooting stars. That's like the best fireworks ever. If you host a large outdoor festival and you're looking for a nice... You're looking for a nice exit of your festival. And you can just call this company, email this company, and they'll make sure that you... You pay up, and they open a little window, and whoosh. And they'll let out a few of those pellets. And then you'll get a nice show of shooting stars on demand. Can you cancel if it's cloudy? I'm not sure if there's a refund possible. I'm thinking about that, too. But that's awesome. It's crazy. But it fits into this whole thing that space is... It's probably somewhere in the terms and conditions. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. No refunds. Exactly. Exactly. But it's so clear that space is becoming so accessible. In a way, if stupid crap like this... I mean, it's amazing, but it's also pretty dumb. If that's possible now, then it's like, hey, we're really... What else? We're really venturing out. If we can throw confetti out, then that's really... Let's face it. We're making giant leaps here, people. There have been some stories about lighting art in space. Yeah. And astronomers and... Well, astronomers anyhow, other people have objections. Of course, because it's light pollution. Oh, light pollution. Yeah. I mean, we have cities. I mean, I can barely see any stars when I go out right now. You're an astronomer. You're observing some kind of dim star. Yeah, okay. And this artificial meteorite comes into view, which you hadn't ordered. But people are partying. Think about the party. I'm really curious as to what the price will be. Back home, right? Below a height of, say... 10, 20 meters. Yeah. But okay. No, it's fine. The Japanese, you said? Which company is this? It's ALE. ALE. I'll put a link in the show notes and people can look up... Thanks. Show notes. Yeah. What this company is. Great. Well, on to Asia. I mean, we're already in Asia. This was a Japanese company. Yes. I first kind of... I was doing some research for this show and I was thinking, how many countries actually have a space program? Which countries have a space program? It's quite a long list. Since the 70s, quite a few have booted up their space programs, but just none are all too active. For instance, Iran. Iran. So we have... I'm reading about this. Let's start with Russia. Old school. Yeah. China? Of course. Big player. Japan? Japan. Okay. Now you take over, Joeri. Then we have India, who's been active since the 70s. We have South Korea. And we also have their little neighbor, North Korea. Oh, yeah. And... Oh, they love rockets. Yeah, they do. And... Iran, you said, Herbert? Yeah. Yeah. We have Iran. And then there are a few nations that... Oh, Japan. Don't forget Japan. Yeah, yeah. Japan. Japan. And there are a few nations that are working on a space program or have something like a space program. For example, Indonesia. You wouldn't expect it from them. They have rockets. I was about to mention that. Yeah. They have rockets too. They have rockets and they have plans for launching rockets into space with satellites. So we're really talking own space capabilities. Yeah. Of each of the countries you mentioned. Yeah. It's a native space capability. Wow. Because, of course, most Asian countries do have some satellites up there or have launched satellites in the past few years. Yeah, I read about Bangladesh, for example, having their own satellites, but they don't have a rocket. Exactly. Yeah. And there's also... Israel? Israel. Yeah. They have their own launch capability, but it's only a military launch capability. Okay. They only use it for spy satellites. And working on something is Pakistan. Pakistan? Yeah. If India does something, Pakistan will too. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think that's a bit of the red thread in the Asian space race is that it's mostly about countries trying to compete with each other. That's right. Yeah, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's how the whole space program started back in the 50s and 60s, of course. It was always about competition at a global scale. But then, I guess, the Americans and the Russians reached all these things that you could reach. And now they're sort of... Yeah. They're looking at each other like, hey, what else can we do? Or what have we not done for a very long time, right? Yeah. Is that how you see it? I believe there's something else too. There's money to be made. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. And the Chinese are very good at that. Indians also, I guess. Yeah. Right? Koreans, Japanese. How do the Chinese and, let's say, the Indian and the... We know about Japan, sort of what they have done. We'll go over it. But China is really this emerging space power. A world power. A world power and a space power. How does it compare to the other countries around it? Well, if you look at space capability, I think the Chinese are way ahead of all the other countries. Okay. They have their own manned space program. Including Asian countries. Asian countries. Yeah. Sure. So they have their own manned space program. They have a pretty blooming scientific space program. And, of course, their military space program is incredibly active, especially the last few years. Mm-hmm. And they have some active programs for the future that are very interesting. Their own space station, their own Mars missions, and, of course, their own lunar program. Yeah. They got something on the moon. Yeah. That little cotton plant went all over the world. So we need to talk about that. Yeah. If you look at the capabilities, then China is the most interesting one at the moment. Also for their near future. Mm-hmm. Do they have a Mars lander plant? I think they have a plant. They have plants. Yeah. Yeah. But it's mostly... They have paper plants right now. I think the most active program right now is either the manned program. They're going to launch their own space station. It's a bit like the old Russian Mir space station back in the days. And they're going to launch the first parts of that space station. It's going to be a modular space station. So it's going to be launched in phases, in small parts, which are going to be assembled up in space. That's really serious stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Because they are not part of the International Space Station. No. They're doing this by themselves. Completely by themselves. That's impressive. That's pretty impressive. I mean, if they get to do it. Yeah. Yeah. If they do do it. Because... We have... Why are they not part of the International Space Station? It's mostly because of the US. There's always this trade war. It's not really a trade war, but... Well, perhaps when the space station was started, they weren't significant yet. No. No. When they started, it was in the 90s. Back in the 90s. Yeah. Yeah. They had their first plans for manned space missions. They had a few rockets. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They had their first ventures into commercial space launches, but nothing serious, nothing really serious. So they weren't really an option at that time. But they've made great progress ever since. They launched their first human into space, I think back in 2003. I don't even remember that. No. Me neither. Yeah. And they've... Don't they do any PR? Hardly. Hardly. The whole Chinese space program is a mystery. 2003. Yeah. Not even within... Young Levi. Young Levi. Yeah. Yeah. They launched as a Tychonaut. That's what we call the astronauts from China. And he launched on what is essentially a copy of the Russian Soyuz vehicle. It looks almost exactly the same. And after that they launched... And they copy Mir too. So they're copying Mir. Yeah. They're basically copying the Russian space program. I see a pattern here. Yeah. So they launched a few more manned missions. Something that's a good... Then they launched one single space station back in 2008. I think the first, Tiangong. It's Heavenly Palace. Yeah. Yeah. So everything is heavenly in the Chinese space program. By the way, the whole thing starts with copying and sooner or later they'll get ahead. Right? Exactly. They got... I mean, they got... That's what they did with electronics, for instance. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. They'll find... Well, you see some things coming from China that are cool, but not necessarily invented there. Right? No, but they copy, they learn, and then they lead. Exactly. Yeah. But do they design new things? Like, do they aim higher than their competitors? Or do they just follow the... Oh, yeah. ...competitors and make that good? Well, they're now at a tipping point because... Well, they copied some of the Russian Soyuz space stations back from the 70s. So, big space stations that were launched in one part. And now they're at a moment when they're going to overtake the Russian space program because they're going to launch their own Mir space station. Yeah. Yeah. So, the man program is part of that space station that's going to fly Chinese. Do they look for cooperation around them? Yes. Yes. Yes, actively. Oh, really? With whom? Pakistan. Okay. And also Europe, ESA. Oh, okay. We're bridge builders. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They've invited European astronauts to work with them on their manned space program. And they've also invited European astronauts to visit... The new Chinese space station when it's up there in the... And wasn't there some Dutch contribution to this moon lander recently? Exactly. Yeah. And also for the upcoming moon missions, there's going to be quite a lot of international cooperation. So yeah, I think the Nijmegen University, they provided a few, I think they were cosmic microwave background... I think you're right. Yeah. I was busy thinking. Couldn't think of anything. But that's... That should be it. Yeah. And also for the recent Chang'e 4 mission, which landed on the other side, dark side of the moon, along with YouTube, there are also a number of international corporations going on there. So yeah, they're actively looking for cooperation outside of the US. Yeah. And you mentioned a military space program. Do they have actual space weapons or what does this military program consist of? We don't know. We don't know. We don't know. We don't have any information. We don't know. No, no, no. No. We don't know. No, no, no. It's a mystery. They're launching quite a lot of satellites in the last five or six years, and most of them deal with earth observation. So you can guess that those are spy satellites. But for a lot of satellites, we don't really know what they are for. We can guess based on where they were made and which factories they were made. So they launched satellites that can look at other satellites. They launched satellites that... To shoot them out of the air? That have moving arms. Maybe that's to help with constructing a space station without spacewalking. It's all these kinds of, well, mysterious launches that all have to do with their military space program. But we don't really know what they're up to. And I was talking about PR. You said they don't do that, but not even internally. I mean, within the country, do they make a show of their astronauts, for instance? Do they make them into heroes? Yeah, they're heroes. The astronauts are true heroes in China, especially the first one. So Yang Lihuai, which you mentioned, he's a true hero. And also when they reach new milestones, for example, the launch of Chang'e 4 to the far side of the moon, that was really well handled in the local press. It's the first plants that they grew. The Chinese cotton plant that grew in the land. Which is super cool. Yeah. That also received quite a lot of press. Yeah, but I see something here. It was super cool. It was minus 170 degrees. Yeah, but they heated it to 24 degrees, it says. And something I read here now is that also a rapeseed and potato seed had sprouted. Yeah, but that didn't work. Well, it said they had sprouted, but the images of only the cotton seed were released. Yeah. Which is really bizarre. If something like... That episode... That epic, like really, that epic has happened and we only have one image of the three. That's kind of crazy. They want the milestone, but they don't want us to know too much. One of the biggest milestones of humanity and then we don't get the pictures. What the hell? Well, it's not in their interest. I'm bummed every week here. The indignation. Yeah. So yeah, China, they're going pretty fast and it's very interesting to see what they're working on. But some of the aspects of the Chinese space program remain a mystery. Yeah. And is that the same for the rest of Asia? For India, it's much more open, for example. And even Russia turns into a spectacle every now and then. Yeah, Russia. Maybe it's okay to go to Russia because that's the oldest player in the space business, of course. We'll talk about India in a little bit. Yeah. Russia is a bit of a... Well, it's hard for Russia. I mean, they've had economic crisis over the past few years. Yeah. And that's really visible in the space sector. Yeah. They used to lead. They used to lead. They have awesome... They had awesome mechanics. They had awesome engineers. They had some awesome rockets. But it's a bit over. Their age has passed. But why? They had a frigging space shuttle and they didn't use it. Yeah. I mean, that was the heyday of the Russian space program, of course. Exactly. And it has to do with money. There's hardly any money available to the space program in Russia, at least not enough. There's plenty of money, but it isn't going there. It's not going there. Yeah. So what you see is that talent, real talent moves out of Russia. They go to China, they go to the US, they go to Europe. So the quality of what's being produced in Russia is really getting out of hand. It's really terrible at the moment. So over the past few years, you've seen quite a bit of... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You've seen quite a lot of high profile mission failures. For example, past year, 2018, I think in October, you had the Soyuz, the manned Soyuz going for the ISS that failed. Yeah. That was probably the most high profile failure for them. And the thing is ancient. I mean... Yeah. So this version of... Don't they have any new rockets? In PowerPoint. In PowerPoint. In PowerPoint. Thank you very much. Okay. Yeah. So they're probably going to have to make a lot of money for new rockets, especially new rockets for their manned space program. They have a lot of plans for a new capsule to take over from the venerable Soyuz. But it's all... There's not enough money to really kickstart development of these projects. So they'll probably get further and further behind. Probably. Yeah. At the current rate, yeah. And you see that more money is being poured into the military part of the space program, creating new intercontinental missiles, creating new cruise missiles. Yeah. And then there's also cruise missiles that can deflect the European and American guardian systems. Yeah. So that's where a lot of money is going to. The rockets against the rockets against... That are against the rockets. Those. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. But it's not going into the manned space program or the scientific space program. Yeah. And it's... They're not aiming high anymore. Yeah. So maybe it's interesting to see. And in 2014, you had this really telltale launch for the space program. Yeah. And it's... It's a big deal. Yeah. It's a big deal. It's a launch failure. They were trying to launch three navigation satellites on a proton rocket. And we'll put the video in the show notes because it's quite interesting to see. You have the video. It's... What do we see there? Yeah. You see the rocket going up and it's going well for the first few seconds. Then it starts to wobble. And then you see it turning 180 degrees and it starts crashing back to the ground. Really gently. Really gently. It goes up really... Like a normal rocket. And then gently, slowly it starts... And then it falls apart and it ends on the ground with a huge explosion. Yeah. This was also one of their high profile launch failures. And the reason that this rocket failed was because quality control. One engineer installed a sensor. A sensor that helps with positioning the rockets in the right... Making sure the rocket goes in the right direction. You installed it upside down. Up. That it goes up. The sensor. The sensor. The sensor. The sensor. And there was quite a bit of force to install it upside down. So he... I'm not sure. He really hammered it in. But no one in the whole process of manufacturing the rocket noticed this defect. Noticed that this went wrong. So you see the rocket going up and then the sensor thinks I'm going in completely the wrong direction. I'm going... I have to turn 180 degrees. I have to steer. This sounds like the failure of the Ariane rocket by some cloth that somebody forgot to put away. Yeah. It's this kind of... Forgotten flaws. Quality control issues that are really boring. The Mars Polar Lander that crashed because of Fahrenheit and Celsius mix ups. That's... That's kind of... Exactly. Like come on, you know. It's already hard enough. These kind of quality control issues are becoming more and more a problem in the Russian. Yeah. Exactly. And so you see this rocket just really gently turning the other way and just shooting back down. It's awful. It's a terrible thing. It's a terrible thing. It's a terrible thing. It's a terrible thing. It's a terrible thing. It's a terrible thing. It's a terrible thing. It's a terrible thing. It's a terrible thing. It's a terrible thing. It's a terrible thing. It's a terrible thing. It's shooting back down. It's completely awful and not the first failure by the Russians then. That's 2013 and then their March 5, their heavy lift rocket, that's sort of their competitor to... Oh wait, that was the Chinese, that was the Russian. Yeah. Sorry, that was not the Russian. But what other things were going wrong then? I think back in... I'm not sure. I keep forgetting the dates but I think in 2009 they launched a very interesting mission to... Phobos, which is a moon of Mars. And that one never left the Earth orbit, which was a complete shame because it also contained a Mars orbiter for China. It was an international corporation and was one of their most important scientific missions. And that one failed as well. I would have loved to see Phobos close up. You keep seeing these kind of launch failures and it's a shame because Russia has so much knowledge. They have so much interesting heritage, but they're getting old. The technology is getting old. The rockets are getting old. But is it also a question of perception? Because if we talk about other countries, we can talk about sort of what they're aiming for, like how high are they aiming? Some want to go to the moon. Some want to go to Mars. Big private industry is coming up and we don't have these types of stories for the Russians, right? They're sort of the old guard. They have what they have, but they don't have any projects lined up that inspire. Is there no private space industry in Russia? No, we used to have because all the old companies that created the old Russian space program, they were privatized in the 90s. And in the last five years, they were all nationalized again. So we have one big state-owned corporation, Roscosmos, and they've taken ownership of almost, almost all the previously private rocket builders, like Khrunichev, which is the builder of the Proton rocket, or I think a few other companies that used to be private. Too bad. And so they don't even want to go to Mars, right? They don't have any Mars? No, they have a few lunar missions planned, but they've planned it for quite a while and they keep getting postponed. Luna. Luna. They used to land on the moon in the 60s and 70s. And those are about the only real interplanetary, real missions outside of the Earth orbit that are planned right now. Yeah, that's too bad. And how's India doing? Positive. The young neighbor to the south. Yeah, India. India is going really fast, especially in the last few years. They launched a Mars probe for the absurd amount of, I think, $60 million. Million. Yeah. Absolutely. Million. Yeah. If you compare it to the price of a U.S. Mars mission, it's absurd. Yeah. And it's still active. It's still sending back pictures of Mars. They're working on new rockets. They have a new heavy launch rocket. They want to open up the heavy launch market to India. So they want to launch big communication satellites. They have their own manned space program. They're actively working on... They have their own manned space capsule. They have a special rocket designed for that. They have a name for their own astronauts. They're Ganganjans. Ganganjans. What does that mean? I think it means Skyman or something. Okay, that's beautiful. Why aren't we hearing anything about this? They're quite open about their space program, but... Here's an Indian Mars picture. Yeah, that's a picture of Mars made by India. It reminds me of this Japanese asteroid mission. Ryugu, what was it again? Hayabusa. Hayabusa? Yeah. Okay. And it occurred to me that when this mission arrived at the asteroid, there were some small articles in newspapers, but nothing big. Whereas when New Horizons arrived at Ultima Thule, there were... Around the same time. ...articles and TV and radio. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There was radio coverage all over the place. Yeah. How come? Yeah, this can be our own perception probably, right? I think it's our own perception. Yeah, it's also... How much news do we really get? If I go to space.com, yes, it's there, but it's not like it's constantly front page news. It's not our own backyard. It's not our own backyard. I think that's the big problem. So I really like to see some... So the problem is where the general press, the public press, picks up these messages, these news items, and they do pick them up from the American source, the European sources, and they don't pick them up from anywhere else. To be honest, the Americans are much better in selling things, right? Yeah, well, that's probably it. And I think that that's also a problem for the Asian space agencies. Although the Indian guys are also very good at selling stuff, but perhaps they don't care about selling them abroad in this case. Yeah, I think PR is not that high on their list as it is for the European Space Agency or for NASA. Yeah. Yeah. Although it is... Of course, something that you can really pride yourself with as a country. So sometimes internally, maybe... Like, I don't know how it is in India itself, but it would make any Indian proud, right? For India, for China, and for South Korea, it is a matter of national pride. Of course, yeah. Because they want to be the first in all these things. And especially for China, it is a matter of national pride. They want to be the leader in the world also with space. And back in the day, the Russian space achievements were in the Western press because we cared about that. We were in competition with them. But India, Japan, etc. aren't perceived as being in competition with us, are they? No, not at all. Because that's the point as well. No, that's also a matter of fact. Yeah, they're not in competition with us. Wait until they have a moon base. I mean, the moment you can look up and you can see a moon base by one of these countries, then it's... Then it's like, hmm, it's on. Sooner or later, this will change. Yeah. Sure. Fun. Okay, more about India. Do they do anything in the military sphere? Not that much. No, no. India is mostly launching Earth observation satellites, communication satellites. And, well, they are going to launch a moon lander. I think it's in March. Planned for March right now. Chandrayaan-2. It's planned for March, you said? Yeah. Yeah, because I'm sort of looking like, what are the ongoing missions that they have? So they have this one planned for March. And what are the other ones currently really active? Because the Mars one was already two years ago, three years ago? Yeah, it's mostly their manned program. I think they're really working on this. And they have a rocket lined up for this. And they're also going to test that in the next few months. Yeah. And so how are they working on the CubeSats? Oh, wait a minute. This moon lander thing. Oh, moon lander thing, yeah. Is it supposed to land? That's what interests me. It's going to launch as currently planned at the end of March. So a few weeks later, it'll land on the moon. And it's a lander and it's also a rover. So it's a direct competition of Chang'e 4, of course. Yeah. Okay, it's going to be fun. Yeah. I'm trying to see where it's going to land. On our side of the moon. Okay, so this time we'll be able to see it. Yeah. Just bring your binoculars. Exactly. Exactly, yeah. But they're also really developing their smaller satellites, right? Yeah. Yeah. Especially India is really doing well in the commercial launch business. They keep launching smaller Earth observation satellites. So they have some space left over in their rockets. And they're selling those to CubeSat owners or intermediate parties like ISIS in the Netherlands. From the Netherlands, yeah. Oh, so just third parties from all over the world. Yeah. So they have some space. Left over. You can buy that space, put in your CubeSat and they'll launch them for you. So you often see an Indian launch that, apart from just an Earth observation satellite or a small research satellite, will also launch 30 to 50 or sometimes even 100 CubeSats into orbit. I'd like to interrupt this podcast for a few seconds just to announce that I have tried to get in touch with ISIS in Delft, a Dutch space company. I haven't heard back. Yeah, by the way. So guys, if you're listening, get in touch with us. We want you here. Yes. Right? Okay. And for our listeners, yes, ISIS is a company from the Netherlands too. It absolutely is. Yes. It's also something else, but it's also a space company. And we love them. Yes. So come on the show. As far as I know, ISIS doesn't have a launch program. Well, they launch certain things. They do. But what sort of, can you say anything about what sort of CubeSats they're launching? Is it all? Do they all just look at the earth or do they have some cool little gadgets in there? Because CubeSats can be so small. You can do everything with them. But do they have an internet program or something? Like any clue about why they have focused on that market in the first place? Revenue. Revenue. It's just money. Just as a money. It's a money maker. They have space left over. And this is a great way to earn some extra revenue. Yeah. You can use that. You can use that to. To further your space program. Yeah. No, because I mean, CubeSats are all the hype. We have to do a show on CubeSats. We do. Yeah. Because it's just. It sounds like, oh, it's just a CubeSat. But it usually means that there's just a wide array of easy access to space. Sort of. You can do all kinds of things. So probably India will have some sort of industry come on its tail if they are, you know, really good at launching. And if they're launching all these small CubeSats, then there's a whole industry can develop over there as well. Yeah. What you see is that most of the CubeSats that they launch are from international partners or from other countries. So yeah, they do have a few CubeSats on their missions that are from their own universities or from own research institutions. But most of them, I think 80 to 90% are from the US, Europe, South America or other Asian countries. Yeah. Well, if we have. So now we've had, we've had the big one, China, the old one. Right. Russia. Russia, the young and sort of like cool businessy, business savvy type who can really work for a low price. Yeah. You know, India. So where does Japan fit in this? Japan. As one of the older guards as well, because they've been going on for decades as well. They've started launching things in the seventies and they've had a steady pace ever since. But for Japan, it is mostly scientific missions. They're very much into interplanetary spacecraft. Yeah. They're basically one active around Venus. They're working on Mars missions. Yeah. The Venus mission. Yeah. They have, they launched a few moon missions, Cellini a few years ago. So it's highly scientific. And Hayabusa of course. And Hayabusa. Recently. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's mostly scientific missions for them. They do have. And Hayabusa of course, the asteroid. What was the name of the asteroid? Ryugu. Ryugu. Ryugu. Ryugu. Yeah. Ryugu. So it's going to collect some samples from an asteroid and bring them back to the earth, I think in a few years. So that's one of the most interesting missions from Japan in recent years. And it's mostly launching Earth observation satellites, which is of course also a scientific, of scientific value. But also commercial value. Yeah. If you wanted to, because many European remote sensing satellites are exploited commercially. Yeah. And they're not the data. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So why is it that Japan focuses on science instead of business? I think that has to do with their history. Think so? Why? Yeah. Of course they have a bit of a, they were in a war. They were on the wrong side at that time. Okay. Yeah. And they don't have an active military. They have self-defense forces. I wasn't talking military. I'm aware of this. But why wouldn't they conduct business with... Yeah, they're trying to, they're trying to, but it's not really working out. And that's mostly because their prices are way too high. So they have a very good rocket, the H2A. And they launched their own satellites with that rocket. And it is available for commercial parties. You can, if you have a big communication satellite, you can buy a H2A rocket. And it happened a few times, but the pricing isn't that good compared to the European rockets, or compared to SpaceX. Okay. That makes sense. Japan is too expensive. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, the reason you gave before that is also a really good one, of course. For a very long time, if all these big powers are battling, it's not militarily, but it's more status and all that stuff. Japan has kept its head down sort of. And they never really developed their own intercontinental ballistic missiles, for example. The rockets they developed were purely sounding rockets. And later rockets to launch communication satellites and these scientific satellites. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, the fact that they actually have these really, really epic missions going to Venus, to an asteroid. And they of course have the astronauts at the International Space Station. They do cooperate in the ISS. Yeah. So they're really, they're up there at the highest level. Of course. Yeah. I think you can compare them to ESA. To ESA. Yeah. So they're a really scientific value manned space program in cooperation with other big players. Yeah. Where the Chinese are still sort of trying to prove themselves with their own sort of unique feats. Yeah. They want to be on their own. And Japan is actually actively searching for cooperation. Yeah. Everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Well, that sort of settles all that. That really gives a good overview of like the big players in Asia. One more thing. Oh, okay. Of course. So as opposed to Russia, does it have some serious space industry? Japan? Yes. Yes. But it's- It does have that. Okay. Yeah. It's mostly Mitsubishi. Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. They build their own satellites. They build their own rockets. They're very self, they can handle themselves, but it's mostly Mitsubishi. But it's always the case in Japan. It's the big companies that dominate certain aspects of industry. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And then you have to go back to the smaller guys. Yeah. Because then you have a whole array of all these small players. And shall we start with the exciting ones first? North Korea. North Korea and Iran. North Korea and Iran. What's going on there? Oh, the villains. Don't want to be biased on this show, but still. We had a launch from Iran three weeks ago. I think it was three weeks ago. There was a launch. There was a launch from Iran. So Iran launches satellites and- Well, almost, right? Yeah. Trying to show how big the satellite is. Yeah. Trying to show how big the satellite is. Yeah. So they're trying to show how big the satellite is. Yeah. So they're trying to show how big the satellite is. Yeah. Yeah. They're trying to show how big the rockets are. Yeah. They tried to launch a small Earth observation satellite. It didn't work out. They tried a new type of rocket, the CIMORG. CIMORG. I'm not sure. My Iranian is a bit rusty, I think. And the first two stages performed perfectly. And then the third stage failed. Oh. And they tried it again in 2000. They tried it before in 2017. And then the second stage failed. So they're working up there, but they're still not really- Oh, yeah. Up to specs. Up to specs. They did launch a number of smaller satellites back in 2009 and the years after that. The SAFIR, I see. The SAFIR. Yeah. The SAFIR rocket. It's a smaller rocket. And that's the interesting thing, because the SAFIR rockets, that's basically an updated version of one of their short range missiles. It's basically a Scud. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Scud rockets that were very active in the Cold War. But those somehow ended up in the Middle East. They were sold there by Russia. Some of them also ended up in North Korea. And North Korea started working on those Scud missiles, improving them, reverse engineering them, creating their own version, the Nodong rocket. And they first started launching them in the 1990s. We saw some launches from North Korea. I mean, it's exactly the same as what happened after the Second World War, where military rockets were being transformed into- Yeah. Yeah. They were, you know, transformed into space-faring rockets. Yeah. Yeah. And then you saw some weird combinations of rockets emerging in North Korea. So they started out with a Nodong rocket, so the Scud, and then added a smaller Scud on top of it, and then said that was a space rocket. Wow. They also started building some larger rockets consisting of four engines based on Scuds. And those were the intercontinental missiles that you see emerging in North Korea right now. Yeah. So North Korea's space program is mostly a military program. It's used, it's meant to verify their intercontinental missiles, their missile technology. Of course they launch satellites, but we all know that it's, that's not the main reason to launch those. And perhaps they serve to impress the rest of the world. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. It is a deterrent. Yeah. It's a deterrent. Yeah. It's a deterrent. Yeah. Yeah. And so they launched this rocket in North Korea. So they launched this rocket in North Korea. It's a very interesting rocket. It's a very interesting rocket. It's a very interesting rocket. And one of the things that I found interesting about it, and I think it's really interesting to see how powerful you are, how good with rockets you are. And the interesting thing is that we started seeing the same kind of rockets, the Nodong rockets in Iran. Okay. All right. So what does that mean? Well, the Safir rockets, the first rocket in Iran, is basically a Nodong rocket. It's a Nodong rocket with a second stage on top of it. So it is able to launch something into space. But in the end, it is... A Nodong rocket. So that suggests they work together. Yeah. And that's what you often see. You see North Korea working on rockets and then you see the same kind of rocket technology emerging in Iran. Iran works a bit on it. And then you see the same kind of rocket technology emerging in North Korea. Back in the day of the apartheid regime, Israel and South Africa worked together in nuclear matters. And also in rockets. And also in rockets. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So it's comparable. It's comparable. It's comparable. And the rocket that you saw three weeks ago being launched from Iran is also based on the North Korean design. And what's the name? Do you know? Of? The most recently launched rocket? Cimorg. Cimorg. I'm trying to find it, but I haven't found it yet. Cimorg. Probably some spelling mistake. Yeah, exactly. That's what it was. Cimorg. Yeah. The rocket. There we go. Also called the Safir 2. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, that makes it easy. Yeah. That's easier to remember, right? So also for Iran, it's a bit difficult to say, but it looks like the space program they have is also to verify technology for their military space program. I guess. Yeah. But you have to take it with a grain of salt because we're dealing with fuels rockets. These are rockets that are based on liquid fuel. As opposed to... Solid fuel. Solid fuel. That's right. The difficulty with liquid fuel rockets is that you have to fuel them before launch. And that takes a while. And you have to store that fuel somewhere. And you have to store that fuel somewhere. So for an intercontinental missile, they're very impractical because you can't launch them at a certain moment. Not quickly. Not quickly. And with the current spy satellites, you know very well where they're stored. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you have to take it with a grain of salt where they are stored. Yeah. You see... You see the tanking installations. You see a launch pad. Solid fuel rockets, you can keep them forever. Not forever. You can take them for years. Yeah. You can move them around. You can launch them from any place. So, they're less vulnerable. So, they're less vulnerable and they're much more practical. So, you have to take it with a bit of a grain of salt. These aren't really the killer weapons that we're looking for. This is, I think, the first step into developing intercontinental practical missiles. But... Yeah. As with the US and Russian space program in the 50s, they also started out with liquid-fueled rockets. And those became the Atlas rockets, the Delta rockets that are still sometimes launching today. And the Soyuz rockets, the venerable Soyuz rockets that's launching humans, that's also an old intercontinental missile developed back in the 50s. So you see these liquid-fueled rockets, they're basically a stepping stone to more practical weapons. And if you look at the rocket itself, it failed twice. Most recently, January 15th, right? You said the third stage failed. Then one failed in 2017. And the first one was actually a success. Yeah, but it was just a demo. Yeah, it was just a demo. So the demo worked, but then two launches failed. And the last one actually had a payload. It was a microsatellite, I see. Yeah, it's 50 kilograms. Yeah, not that much. So it sounds like it's still very much in its infant stages, right? Yeah. So for Iran, we don't really know where they're heading. On the short term, there is another launch lined up in the next few days, I think. In the next few days? Yeah. So usually, on the 2nd of February or the 3rd of February, they're celebrating a national day. So I think it's the day when the Iranian Republic was proclaimed. And that's usually the time when they start launching things. So keep an eye out on that day. We will. And this cooperation between Iran and North Korea, what form does it take? Any insights on that? Yeah, we don't really know what form it takes, but I think it mainly deals with exchanging information and maybe even exchanging hardware. But that's, of course, hard to prove. Yeah. People, maybe? People could be. Yeah, I think it's mostly information. But we don't know. Aren't there some sanctions actually in place that prevent them from doing that? So it all maybe not even... Not between them, of course. No, not between them. No. Crossing out of Iran or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. No. Okay. And North Korea. So the North Koreans also have a space program. Yeah. Which is great. I mean, their space agency is called NADA. Which is like, you know, does it really have to be so close to the name of your archenemy? But NADA. Do they have NADA or do they have something? Oh, I don't know if you got that. Yeah. They used to have something, but it's been quiet on the space launch front. They were quite active with launching intercontinental missiles. As we all know. The Hwasong rockets. But did they do anything to speak of space-wise in the past? Yeah. They tried. They launched. They used their Kwangmyong-song satellites. Google that. Okay. Kwangmyong-song. They launched a number of... They tried to launch a number of satellites over the years. They did. In June. They did. But we didn't get a lot of feedback. I mean, the first one, the first one was a satellite. And the second one was a satellite that had been launched several years ago. And that's what I mean. But nobody knows what. Yeah, nobody knows what. It might have been an Earth observation satellite. But we didn't receive any feedback from it. So maybe it was that on arrival. Maybe it was a dog. Who knows? Who knows? But they do have rockets that are able to launch something into space. The Oonha rockets. It's been quiet in the last few years in North Korea. So who do we have left? We have Pakistan, Indonesia, South Korea. South Korea. Yeah, South Korea. They launched their own rockets a few years ago, but those were basically rockets from Russia that they bought. And they're now working on their own space launch system. Anything they focus on as far as the purpose is concerned? No, I think it's also national pride. They have a moon mission lined up. They have a few communication satellites lined up, but that's about it. It's mostly a matter of national pride, having their own rocket. Yeah. Being able to access space by themselves. Right. Same goes for Pakistan and Indonesia. Yeah. Yeah. That's also a matter of national pride. Indonesia is working on their own space launch system. They have suborbital sounding rockets, but that's about it. And Pakistan is also, they have their own space agency. They have sounding rockets, but they're not going to be able to launch a space launch system. Okay. They don't really have any concrete plans for their own space launch system. Did you mean, by the way, back to North Korea, did you mean the Kwangmyong Song? That one. Yeah. So that was, those were satellites that they did launch in 2009. Yeah. Actually, do you know what it means? It means bright star or brilliant star. And it's from a poem written by Kim Il-sung. What a surprise. I wondered where he would turn up. Yeah, exactly. Kim Il-sung or whoever. Yeah, exactly. And so they, just shortly back to North Korea, they have an active space program, but it's not really getting off the ground. That's the pun that we were looking for. Exactly. Exactly. So we had the South Koreans now. Bangladesh does something with satellites, but they don't have their own rockets, right? No. Yeah. And so there's probably a whole range of countries that are working towards maybe something at their universities, but they don't have it as well established. Could we ever envision that there's some sort of ESA, not an ESA, but an ESA, like an Asian space agency where they start cooperating? No. Yeah, no. You're saying no. I don't think. No? The competition is too heavy because it's such a young. Especially the competition between the big players. I can see some of the regional. I can see some of the regional agencies collaborating. I mean, for example, the agencies in Central Asia. Turkmenistan has their own satellite program. Kazakhstan has their own satellite program. We have to go to Turkmenistan, get somebody on the show. So I can see those working together. I can see some of the Southeast Asian countries working together. What about Thailand and Vietnam and Laos and all that? Those kind of countries. Together with Indonesia as the leader, maybe. Who knows? Who knows? But no, it's most... Yeah. It's... It's... It's... It's too much of an issue of national pride. Still. Yeah. Maybe they are where, you know, some of the European countries were a long time ago. Yeah. Still. Still have to prove themselves. And they slaughtered each other and then they start cooperating. The Arab Peninsula. Like, I seem to remember that Qatar or some such country was trying to get into space mining, for instance. Yeah. And the United Arab Emirates, of course. Yeah. They have a space agency. So they like to do that. They launched a few Earth observation satellites. They're gearing up for a Mars mission. What? Oh, Amal, I think it's called. The United Arab Emirates you're talking about? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. They have a Mars mission lined up. It's going to launch on a Japanese rocket. So they bought some launch space over there. And we have, of course, Israel. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Who will gladly cooperate with all Middle Eastern countries to launch a space program. So Israel has their own launch capability. It's a MESA. Yeah. It is MESA. So they have their own launch capability, but it's an uprooted intercontinental solid-fueled missile. So they launched their own Earth observation spy satellites with those. They have a lot of communication satellites and they have a private company that's going to launch the first private moon mission next month. Oh, you're talking. Wow. From Israel. Next month. Yeah. So they're going to launch on a SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket. Next month being February. Yeah. February. Yeah. All right. And it's going to be really the first private moon mission. So it's going to land on the moon. It's only going to be active for two days on the moon because then it's going to overheat. On a Falcon 9, you said? Yeah. Oh, I wasn't even aware that a Falcon 9 could take things to the moon. No, it's going there on its own power. So it's piggybacking on a mission for a commercial satellite, for an Indonesian commercial satellite. Okay. And once it deploys from that launch stack, then it's going to move to the moon on its own propulsion. It's going to orbit the moon. And then after a few days, it's going to land on the moon. And then it's only going to stay there for two days. Then it'll overheat and it'll die. Oh. That's fun. Who wants to spend money on that? Yeah. That was my question as well. I was really wondering. They were a contender for the Google Lunar XPRIZE. Yeah. Okay. It's a cool plan, but it seems to cost a lot. Yeah. What I don't understand is who's going to make money off that. Yeah, exactly. Because since it's a commercial mission, I'm not very much interested in who's paying for it, but who is planning or seeing a way to make money off that? Yeah. I don't see how they can monetize this, because it's only going to carry two science equipment. It's going to carry a magnetometer, so they can measure the magnetism on the moon. Yeah. And it's going to be a laser reflector, so you can shoot a laser from Earth to the moon. To measure distance or something. Yeah. Yes, for all the flat earthers out there. Yeah. But we have to keep in mind, find out more. That's what we need to do. Find out more about these commercial missions. Yeah, exactly. Because the business model is probably very interesting. I'm guessing they are testing themselves and maybe make money in the future somehow. But I want to know. Yeah. I want to know more about that. There are a few more of these commercial moon missions lined up for the next few years. One from Germany, from Japan, from the US, of course. I think an interesting one is Astrobiotic. That's also an interesting company. And I think they have a business plan behind this. But there are more commercial missions going to the moon in the next few years. So it'll be interesting to see what the business model will be for this. Yeah, very cool. And like you said, there were some countries in the Middle East interested in space mining. I mean, it's... The business model for that is always... On paper it exists, but it's still way too expensive, of course. It does seem like a good fit, though, that if they're eventually running out of fossil fuels but have like five decades to develop a new space mining industry, it seems like something they could work on, of course. Plenty of space to launch stuff as well. Plenty of money to develop it. Yeah, plenty of money to develop it. So it would be a really wise investment for the Middle East, for a lot of these oil producing countries. Yeah, the whole concept of space mining is, of course, an interesting one and worth checking out another time. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I hope to... We have a short list of people that we want to get on the show. Yes. I guess that concludes this Asia update. Yeah, perfect. Thank you so much, Joeri. Anything very important that you might want to add? Did we miss a country? Are we going to get angry emails from somewhere? Did we miss anything? Well, we talked about Indonesia for a little bit, but maybe they first have to get their moon program. Or their Mars program. Or their Venus program. Or Mercury. Let's go to Mercury. Whatever. Yeah. Who knows? No, I think... Pluto program. Yeah, Pluto program. I think we dealt with the most important things that are going on in Asia right now. And it's an act of development. There's so much going on. So it's very interesting to follow what's going on. Yeah, very cool. Yeah, for our listeners, we hope to do a show like this on Africa and Latin America as well. So stay tuned for that. More space. Those will be very short episodes. But... Well, I wanted a story about Africa and the space program. And it's quite cool. Like, they're not really going places, but the inspiration is there. So it's fun to talk about. Yeah. Thank you so much, Joeri. Yeah. It's great being here. So thank you. Thank you, Joeri Nortier. Thank you, Thijs Roes. Thank you, Herbert. And thank you to all our listeners and our supporters on Patreon. That's right. Yeah, go to patreon.com slash space cowboys to see how you can support us too. And see you next time. See you next time. On Space Cowboys. Yes. Oh, and don't forget, you can follow us not only on your favorite podcast show, but also on YouTube. And Twitter. Yeah. And on Twitter. So... Go to... See you there. Space Cowboys on YouTube, Space Cowboys pod on Twitter. Yes. Awesome. Thank you all. See you guys. Thank you. Bye-bye.